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[Toxigen]

Origen when was the last time you ate a steak or did some deadlifts?

[Origen]

Probably not. I acquired faith through trauma, and I've read that it isn't the most enduring form of faith. But I'm not a preacher. That isn't my wheelhouse. Never tried, not terribly interested in trying.

I'd sooner try to convince someone to help out at a homeless shelter than go to a church and pray for the Lord to help the homeless.

[Seducio]

Originally Posted by Origen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Probably not. I acquired faith through trauma, and I've read that it isn't the most enduring form of faith. But I'm not a preacher. That isn't my wheelhouse. Never tried, not terribly interested in trying.

I'd sooner try to convince someone to help out at a homeless shelter than go to a church and pray for the Lord to help the homeless.

Well that's good humility on trying to change others beliefs as far as religion. I would suggest that trying to change others beliefs with regard to politics is similar.

Changing beliefs in general can happen from within kind of like you did. Or from without and if from without typically force is involved. Nobody likes that except bullying types.

As far as convincing others to help with in-need-people you would rather see get help rather than merely relying on prayer alone, well, that indicates maturity. You have the ability to help those who share a value structure / end goal perhaps better than those who might have a different value structure / end goal. The fact that you have awareness of what was required for your beliefs to change should inform you how much it would take for something like that to happen in others.

[Origen]

When I post the things that I do at the reactionaries on this forum, my intention is not to change the mind of the reactionary. I don't know that I can do that with a post.

Reactionary ideology is built to proof the reactionary against just such a scenario, that's what the knee-jerk reaction to truth that counters a reactionary belief is meant to prevent.

No, the reactionaries will have to come to the reasonable and ask for their forgiveness, someday. And they should likely be forgiven out of Humanist tendencies, if nothing else. Many won't, many will, hopefully enough will before capitalism destroys the Earth's ability to host human life. Maybe the technocrats will come up with an alternative that saves many people, but when I look at dudes like Elon Musk leading that charge I am not filled with hope.

[Lune]

In WW2, many atrocities were committed by paramilitary police units like the Einsatzgruppen. These were overwhelmingly made up of regular-ass, middle class German family men who were trying not to get sent to the Eastern front. Most received training heavy on political programming and desensitization to the violence they would be committing against civilian men, women, and children. Others didn't. Some of the most prolific killers were that second group.

There were several institutional tactics to get them started on these atrocities that I won't go into here, but once they got started, the vast majority bought in whole-heartedly to what they saw as a 'duty'.

After the war, when the German legal system started coming after these people, what they encountered were mass-murderers who saw themselves as victims. In their minds, the atrocities they committed were legal when they committed them, under the laws of the German Reich. They were "just doing what they were told to do by their country". So when they were being prosecuted, the overwhelming sentiment was "poor me", or "why are they going after me for following the orders of my country and doing my duty to the Reich?"

Almost none of these people ever changed their minds, even in the face of overwhelming external condemnation both from within their own society, and from the entire rest of the West. They carried their lack of guilt to their graves. This is one reason why cults are so fastidious. A human being's sense of duty to their perceived in-group and immediate cohort is so overwhelmingly strong as to be virtually unassailable by 'outside' influence. Likely because this was extremely adaptive during our evolution.

The rare person who can divest themselves from their own psychological attachment to a belief are, in my mind, the only ones qualified for the highest levels of science or any other type of leadership. Fundamentally, this is the skill that underlies the scientific method, as well as being useful as a voter. I wish we had some assessment with any degree of construct validity to weed people without this skill out of science and other fields.

[magnetaress]

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In WW2, many atrocities were committed by paramilitary police units like the Einsatzgruppen. These were overwhelmingly made up of regular-ass, middle class German family men who were trying not to get sent to the Eastern front. Most received training heavy on political programming and desensitization to the violence they would be committing against civilian men, women, and children. Others didn't. Some of the most prolific killers were that second group.

There were several institutional tactics to get them started on these atrocities that I won't go into here, but once they got started, the vast majority bought in whole-heartedly to what they saw as a 'duty'.

After the war, when the German legal system started coming after these people, what they encountered were mass-murderers who saw themselves as victims. In their minds, the atrocities they committed were legal when they committed them, under the laws of the German Reich. They were "just doing what they were told to do by their country". So when they were being prosecuted, the overwhelming sentiment was "poor me", or "why are they going after me for following the orders of my country and doing my duty to the Reich?"

Almost none of these people ever changed their minds, even in the face of overwhelming external condemnation both from within their own society, and from the entire rest of the West. They carried their lack of guilt to their graves. This is one reason why cults are so fastidious. A human being's sense of duty to their perceived in-group and immediate cohort is so overwhelmingly strong as to be virtually unassailable by 'outside' influence. Likely because this was extremely adaptive during our evolution.

The rare person who can divest themselves from their own psychological attachment to a belief are, in my mind, the only ones qualified for the highest levels of science or any other type of leadership. Fundamentally, this is the skill that underlies the scientific method, as well as being useful as a voter. I wish we had some assessment with any degree of construct validity to weed people without this skill out of science and other fields.

Yeah you can't do anything to give people forgiveness or redemption.

Consider it like the borg. Most are casualties if they where able to be good in the first place is debatable.

The trick is in not enabling or empowering said people or affirming their beliefs. Like by not rioting mindlessly and looting. Which just justifies and affirms the built in evolutionary bias vs the "other". "Them townies over the hill!" Whatever.

There are always going to be exceptions. Never the rule. And it's not really in anyone's control whether that exception can even exist. Circumstances can help. Butt still really not enough to tip the scales.

The best defense is the most *****effective ***** offense. I can tell you democrats are terrible about strategy and tactics and bleeding hearts make for poor soldiers to keep the basic instinctual animals in line.

No one of sound and right mind is going to follow Kamala Harris into battle. Buttt... that is what they want and are trying to force.

They. Want antifa to get themselves killed and make the MAGA dudes feel proud.

They. Are using you.

[unsunghero]

Originally Posted by Origen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

When I post the things that I do at the reactionaries on this forum, my intention is not to change the mind of the reactionary. I don't know that I can do that with a post.

Reactionary ideology is built to proof the reactionary against just such a scenario, that's what the knee-jerk reaction to truth that counters a reactionary belief is meant to prevent.

No, the reactionaries will have to come to the reasonable and ask for their forgiveness, someday. And they should likely be forgiven out of Humanist tendencies, if nothing else. Many won't, many will, hopefully enough will before capitalism destroys the Earth's ability to host human life. Maybe the technocrats will come up with an alternative that saves many people, but when I look at dudes like Elon Musk leading that charge I am not filled with hope.

Talks about truth and not knee jerk bullshit

Says people here say or post that trans people shouldn’t be allowed to talk about their life to anyone

When asked for proof says “but Muh Matt Walsh” as if anyone here has actually posted some Matt Walsh vids about trans people in the past years

[Origen]

I am not going to do any reactionary the huge favor of me digging through their posts just to throw their words back at them. That's an exercise in futility. They don't care if their current words contradict their former words, so why the hell should I?

You're expecting debate club nonsense again. I don't do that. Zoom out. Go outside. Stop watching Youtube videos.

[Seducio]

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In WW2, many atrocities were committed by paramilitary police units like the Einsatzgruppen. These were overwhelmingly made up of regular-ass, middle class German family men who were trying not to get sent to the Eastern front. Most received training heavy on political programming and desensitization to the violence they would be committing against civilian men, women, and children. Others didn't. Some of the most prolific killers were that second group.

There were several institutional tactics to get them started on these atrocities that I won't go into here, but once they got started, the vast majority bought in whole-heartedly to what they saw as a 'duty'.

After the war, when the German legal system started coming after these people, what they encountered were mass-murderers who saw themselves as victims. In their minds, the atrocities they committed were legal when they committed them, under the laws of the German Reich. They were "just doing what they were told to do by their country". So when they were being prosecuted, the overwhelming sentiment was "poor me", or "why are they going after me for following the orders of my country and doing my duty to the Reich?"

Almost none of these people ever changed their minds, even in the face of overwhelming external condemnation both from within their own society, and from the entire rest of the West. They carried their lack of guilt to their graves. This is one reason why cults are so fastidious. A human being's sense of duty to their perceived in-group and immediate cohort is so overwhelmingly strong as to be virtually unassailable by 'outside' influence. Likely because this was extremely adaptive during our evolution.

The rare person who can divest themselves from their own psychological attachment to a belief are, in my mind, the only ones qualified for the highest levels of science or any other type of leadership. Fundamentally, this is the skill that underlies the scientific method, as well as being useful as a voter. I wish we had some assessment with any degree of construct validity to weed people without this skill out of science and other fields.

Ya beliefs are a trip. Every human I've ever met has literally had to change their belief system as they moved through life simply by being alive. It happens so subtle beneath awareness though that many don't give attention to how their biological system wraps tightly around the belief like an anaconda with a death grip to their given religious or chosen pollical system. They just forget the earliest stages of imprinting and trust that were involved to get them on board and resist looking at the world differently.

Usually if someone has changed their belief system in their lifetime there is a corresponding awareness that most other folks are stuck in a singular set of beliefs and no amount of finagling with them will get them out of it. That's with reasonable ways like with talking, debate, and back and forth. Beliefs don't change that way. With the unethical ways Lune didn't want to get into, they can. Everyone on earth that has been exposed to media has been exposed to some Psych Op or another. The ability to see past ones own belief system is a tough lesson to deliver.

It would be a wonderful world if the scientific community were only made up of the people you describe Lune. There are many great and humble scientists that are capable of true dis-interested inquiry and discovery. These days it seems rare though.

Much - though definitely not all - of science these days seems connected to keeping funding pathways alive for universities, research institutions, and research programs for groups of people whose careers are connected to growing their bottom line of their particular outfit rather than increasing the knowledge base of science. For instance why String Theory is still being studied in physics departments rather than having been shifted to Math depts has everything to do with funding. The fact that String Theory has long been determined to be outside the realm of empiricism and can never be tested doesn't matter even though that disqualifies it as a science. Sadly much of science is regulatorily captured in similar ways.

[unsunghero]

Originally Posted by Origen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am not going to do any reactionary the huge favor of me digging through their posts just to throw their words back at them. That's an exercise in futility. They don't care if their current words contradict their former words, so why the hell should I?

You're expecting debate club nonsense again. I don't do that. Zoom out. Go outside. Stop watching Youtube videos.

Now he gets specific? Before it was “people here who support trans people not being allowed to talk about their life”

Then it was Matt Walsh. Then it was my posts

Then he says he won’t dig because he knows it doesn’t exist. Shit, he could go back years and wouldn’t find me posting any Matt Walsh vids about trans people and he knows it

But not just my posts, let’s not all of sudden get specific because it doesn’t have the shock value of your previous vague bullshit

Pull up anyone’s posts claiming trans people shouldn’t be allowed to talk about their life. You can’t do it. Everyone knows you can’t do it, because

It’s
A
Load
Of
Exaggerated
Bullshit