Best 4 person all caster/priest group

[cyxthryth]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Trolls like Cyxthryth will continue to use the argument that all evidence is invalid, because they can't provide anything better.

I've never argued that all evidence is invalid lol. That's simply another DSM Straw Man, which supports the below:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't care about being wrong

Originally Posted by cyxthryth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It could be argued that since you (DSM) "don't care about being wrong" even if you know that you are objectively wrong you simply don't care, & will simply continue to argue despite being objectively wrong indefinitely. The evidence in this thread (& the above Quote) supports this argument very well, as you have made 1,300+ posts which simply provided no evidence which supported your specific claims made over tens? hundreds? of posts that your Shaman could improve a group's DPS and provide benefit and/or more benefit than a non Epic Mage by Root Rotting multiple mobs parallel to the group, as one simple example.

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Please come back when you can provide any evidence for any of your claims. I have provided multiple videos showing how the game works and how Shamans work. You have provided "I am right, you are wrong" arguments. I am sorry, but logical fallacies do not count as valid methods of debate.

Claiming I am a troll because you refuse to provide evidence for your own claims is quite a stretch.

As I said before, I would be happy to group with you Crede so we can make some videos! You can see a video of me grouping up with Pint to help move the discussion along about a Shadowknight debate, so you have proof that I am not simply saying this.

For those interested, you can check out the youtube channel in my signature for the videos and make up your own minds. Trolls like Cyxthryth will continue to use the argument that all evidence is invalid, because they can't provide anything better.

How can one make up their mind when you continuously provide contradicting Claims that multiple users have pointed out?

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Agreed. So far, you haven't shown any evidence as to why the Cleric is bringing more than the Shaman in a group of four 60s without a Warrior, when OP didn't specify that you cannot have pocket Clerics for reses.

So you suggested using a pocket cleric, but yet you originally included clerics in the discussion, so clearly you see their value in the group, or else you wouldn’t have initially suggested it.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Shaman Enchanter Enchanter Cleric. If you are planning on doing Fungi Tunic camp then probably swap 1 Enchanter for a Necro, so they can pull.

It’s hard to keep track of everything with all the goalpost shifting. Since you can clearly see the value of a cleric, you’ll need to provide evidence that a shaman is still needed when you could just add a mage for mala and more dps.

Seems like you’re still unsure about clerics too which confirms my assumptions that you need to go out and acquire more experience!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

How can one make up their mind when you continuously provide contradicting Claims that multiple users have pointed out?



So you suggested using a pocket cleric, but yet you originally included clerics in the discussion, so clearly you see their value in the group, or else you wouldn’t have initially suggested it.



It’s hard to keep track of everything with all the goalpost shifting. Since you can clearly see the value of a cleric, you’ll need to provide evidence that a shaman is still needed when you could just add a mage for mala and more dps.

Seems like you’re still unsure about clerics too which confirms my assumptions that you need to go out and acquire more experience!

These are not contradictions. They are separate discussions you are taking out of context to try and make them contradictions[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] It is grasping at straws instead of providing evidence.

I never claimed Clerics are bad in this scenario. You can see I advocated for them on the first page! You are the one claiming Shamans are bad in this scenario, and can never be considered over a Cleric. Thus you need to back up your claim about Shamans being bad in this scenario.

It is not "goal post shifting" when there are multiple discussions going on in a thread, and I am responding to each of them. To say that this thread has been on one single topic without variation is obviously laughable.

For the specific topic of pocket Clerics, that was a discussion on the merits of picking a Cleric over a Shaman if you had to choose one. I said Shaman and Cleric in the same group was a fine idea on page one.

I provided evidence as to why a Shaman is a good pick. So far you have provided zero evidence as to why a Cleric is a good pick, or a Mage.

[cyxthryth]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I provided evidence as to why a Shaman is a good pick. So far you have provided zero evidence as to why a Cleric is a good pick, or a Mage.

Huh?

For the sake of civil discussion can you please provide the definition that you are using for "evidence" and/or specify the criteria that must be met to be able to consider something "evidence" (of something)?

[Gloomlord]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am not disagreeing with the point that Clerics synergize well with Enchanters.

You could also have a Shaman/Cleric if you want two healers.

If you want to make the claim that Clerics are better for a four man caster/priest group, you need to provide some evidence so we can compare it to a Shaman.

Like, what...? What the fuck?

Do you even play this game?!?!?!

Of course Clerics are better than Shaman for a 4 man caster group, you ridiculous man.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Gloomlord [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Like, what...? What the fuck?

Do you even play this game?!?!?!

Of course Clerics are better than Shaman for a 4 man caster group, you ridiculous man.

Still waiting on the evidence for this claim!

[7thGate]

I would actually really love to see the DA train rip redirecting a train off someone else, if anyone has a video of this working. As described this goes against my understanding of how DA operates and doesn't sound like it would work. As far as I know you will immediately temporarily drop to the bottom of the hate list when DA activates, preventing you from holding aggro on anyone since DA tanking could potentially be a thing otherwise.

Every time I've seen someone go DA they immediately shed aggro back, whether its a paladin emergency DAing in halls of testing or a rip off a DA kite bringing everything until DA wears off causing the pack to split as the untagged mobs re-aggro the initial DA trainout person. For this to work as described, I must be missing some aspect of how this mechanic works. Hm...

...is it that the mob doesn't check for a new top hate entry to potentially target switch until someone does something to it? Maybe I should test this.

I have blocked a train as described with Nimble by sitting down in the path of a train before it hits camp to sit aggro the train on inbound and Nimble kite it away to give time to log out, but Nimble doesn't change your aggro order.

Also as a note, you get between 12 and 18 seconds off DA since its 3 server ticks duration. I was reminded of that the hard way while working out splitting triplets.

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I provided evidence as to why a Shaman is a good pick. So far you have provided zero evidence as to why a Cleric is a good pick, or a Mage.

What is your definition of a "good pick"?

You provided a video where you averaged 15 dps & your group wiped multiple times. You were also criticized by your ability to assist others in charm breaks. This is by no means evidence of anything you have claimed in this thread, lol, and in fact directly contradicts all of what you have previously claimed.

Please come back with something actually meaningful to this discussion, for all intensive purposes, nobody would consider your "evidence" as signs for why a shaman would be a "good pick".

I don't need to provide evidence as to why a cleric is appropriate in this group, considering the entire thread, including yourself, already included them as part of the original discussion, I think we can put that to rest that they are guaranteed a spot here.

[Guesty07]

444 pages to learn than mage damage > shaman

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What is your definition of a "good pick"?

You provided a video where you averaged 15 dps & your group wiped multiple times. You were also criticized by your ability to assist others in charm breaks. This is by no means evidence of anything you have claimed in this thread, lol, and in fact directly contradicts all of what you have previously claimed.

Please come back with something actually meaningful to this discussion, for all intensive purposes, nobody would consider your "evidence" as signs for why a shaman would be a "good pick".

You are either purposely straw manning my arguments, or simply not reading what I am saying. Neither of these tactics are helping your position, and make you look like a troll.

The arguments below are assuming you only have 1 slot left in the group, and are trying to determine which class is best for that remaining slot.

Here are some common arguments for a Cleric, and my rebuttals thus far:

1a. Argument: Clerics have Resurrection and Shamans do not.
1b. Rebuttal: Pocket Clerics are a common tactic when it comes to Resurrection, which you agree with: https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...78&postcount=6

2a. Argument: Clerics have CH, which is a better tool for keeping Charmed Pets alive.
2b. Rebuttal: With Torpor + Slow, Shamans can tank the mobs instead of the Charmed Pets. This removes the need to CH pets, and it allows the pets to do a bit more DPS, because they can both be behind the mob. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jG1Aat1XdbI - Here is an example of this, and you can go on my youtube channel to see other examples of Shaman tanking.

3a. Argument: Clerics have Stun Command, which is a useful spell during Charm breaks.
3b. Rebuttal: Stun Command is not required to properly handle Charm breaks. You need to show evidence as to why this is a huge benefit over Malo/Malosini on a pet for Charm breaks, for example. Shamans have quite a few tools to use when helping out with a Charm break.

4a. Argument: This group of 4 players without a Warrior need at least one cleric for CH when dealing with slow immune mobs.
4b. Rebuttal: People making this claim have yet to name a camp where they think this will be an issue. They are assuming there are camps that a group of 4 players without a Warrior could reasonably do by CHing the pet, since the mob cannot be slowed. We could test if this camp isn't doable by a Shaman, and we could debate the merits of trying to do this camp to begin with in a four man caster/priest group. Also, if you have a pocket Cleric at level 49, you will be able to swap to them for CHing one or two very specific camps.

Here are some common arguments for a Mage, and my rebuttals thus far:

5a. Argument: You cannot use solo DPS videos to mimic group DPS when trying to determine which classes are better/worse for DPS.
5b. Rebuttal: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jG1Aat1XdbI this video shows you can use a solo video such as https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XwiGKTuu2E to mimic group DPS. This means you can get an accurate idea about what the DPS difference is between a Shaman and a Mage, to better understand what the tradeoff is between a Mage and a Shaman. Crede didn't watch the video I posted, which is why he thought I was only doing 15 DPS. With a Shaman pet and 1x Ice Strike, I am doing 30ish DPS minimum, not including the DPS boost from avataring the Charmed pets, and the DPS boost from having the Charmed pets hitting the mob from behind. This group was also not an example of a "perfect group", as the Enchanter and Necromancer were not level 60. This means there is room for improvement. I also would have been able to root/rot in HS west if the group wanted more kills per hour.

6a. Argument: The DPS advantage a Mage can provide in a group out weights the Utility of a Shaman.
6b. Rebuttal: DPS has diminishing returns, based on the camp you are currently doing. As as simple example, if you are camping a mob on a 5 minute timer and it takes 1 minute to kill the mob, you are getting 10 kills per hour. If you double your DPS to where you are killing the mob in 30 seconds, you are getting 11 kills per hour. While you did double your DPS, you did not double your XP gains, you only boosted them by 10%. In a group that is camping a single high priority mob, such as Fungi King, you are not getting any more kills per hour by increasing your DPS via bringing a Mage. At 200 DPS you kill him in 90 seconds. At 300 DPS you kill him in 60 seconds. Saving 30 seconds per 30 minute respawn timer would require you to camp him for 30 hours to get an extra spawn. If your group is killing a lot of trivial mobs for XP, that camp/area has a limit on how many mobs are killable per hour. You may already be at that limit with 2x Enchanters. A Shaman can also increase their DPS by root rotting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gdAIheodtY This is what that would look like in Velks. The Shaman would be root rotting in one area, while the group is in another nearby area killing other spiders.

Thus far, No evidence has been provided for any of these 6 arguments that dismantle my rebuttals.

The idea that I said Shamans will typically out-DPS Mages is a strawman, and thus not one of the points mentioned here. Mages will generally out-DPS a Shaman in single target scenarios and burst scenarios. Shamans can out-DPS Mages in root/rotting scenarios.