most underpowered class in game?

[greatdane]

Bards aren't that good in classic. You barely even need resists in most raid content pre-Kunark. Aside from the two dragons, most bosses have unresistable mechanics or just none. In groups, bards can only mez up to level 45 which excludes most of the top-tier camps in dungeons, and they only get that terrible single-pulse mana song at level 32 which is barely usable since it's not an actual buff that lingers. Their haste songs pre-50 are godawful, too. Bards are really not good until after classic. I wouldn't go so far as to call it the worst class, but I'd definitely place it in the bottom half of the hierarchy.

Let's take a generic group of upper 40s in LGuk. What do they get out of adding a bard? In all likelihood, mobs are being pulled and killed immediately upon respawn, so literally anybody can be the puller. It's unlikely that there's no enchanter or shaman in the group, but even if that's the case and the bard's haste song matters, it's like 20% all the way up until level 50. He won't be able to mez much of the trash in the high-end camps. He can't really tank due to having no serious way of holding aggro, he doesn't do any meaningful DPS, the classic mana song is pretty much useless except during downtime when the bard can just stand there and spam it exclusively. There's just kind of no reason to have a bard in the group at all. The songs are so low-impact and the classic dungeons are so mob-scarce and compact that the role of puller is barely a thing.

[Ennewi]

Originally Posted by greatdane [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Bards aren't that good in classic. You barely even need resists in most raid content pre-Kunark. Aside from the two dragons, most bosses have unresistable mechanics or just none. In groups, bards can only mez up to level 45 which excludes most of the top-tier camps in dungeons, and they only get that terrible single-pulse mana song at level 32 which is barely usable since it's not an actual buff that lingers. Their haste songs pre-50 are godawful, too. Bards are really not good until after classic. I wouldn't go so far as to call it the worst class, but I'd definitely place it in the bottom half of the hierarchy.

Let's take a generic group of upper 40s in LGuk. What do they get out of adding a bard? In all likelihood, mobs are being pulled and killed immediately upon respawn, so literally anybody can be the puller. It's unlikely that there's no enchanter or shaman in the group, but even if that's the case and the bard's haste song matters, it's like 20% all the way up until level 50. He won't be able to mez much of the trash in the high-end camps. He can't really tank due to having no serious way of holding aggro, he doesn't do any meaningful DPS, the classic mana song is pretty much useless except during downtime when the bard can just stand there and spam it exclusively. There's just kind of no reason to have a bard in the group at all. The songs are so low-impact and the classic dungeons are so mob-scarce and compact that the role of puller is barely a thing.

Left out jig o' vigor which is easy to forget since the need for zings is almost nonexistent on p99, but with classic being specified it deserves a mention. Not that other classes couldn't restore stamina, but one being able to do it on an endless loop had to be valuable.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/a....php/t-89.html

Nirgon
10-16-2014, 03:33 PM
I agree with this much for swimming, I don't think it made you run out of air:

http://www.eqcleric.com/archive/index.php/t-10772.html

Kedge raids. Swiming takes stamina. Underwater you are constantly swiming. If you run out of stamina you STOP moving. At all. Clerics and Enchanters used to get /tells for "Zing!" a LOT. (Switch to endurance changed this, so far as I know you can MOVE and swim if you have zero endurance.)


Characters under 100 stamina:

Movement speed and stats(str/agi I think) dropped when the old stamina bar was depleted, though this only affected people with <100 STA (buffed).


I definitely remember having to keep just a PINCH of yellow in my bar chasing someone, this would explain it. Move speed / stats / hit rate when out of stam looks to be correct, needs more proof.



Attack Speed:
http://www.eqcleric.com/archive/index.php/t-4498.html

When your stamina drops all the way down, you become fatigued and with less than 100 stamina you are affecteed by it and your attack speed drops, fairly noticably. OVer 100 in stamina it's really pointless to worry with though as there are no ill affects of running out of stamina, aside that you can't jump anymore if you are trying to flee.


Can't wait for 100 sta (being a HEARTY adventurer) being such a valuable thing to have [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

IMMERSIVE

Danth
10-16-2014, 04:04 PM
Calling it endurance isn't classic.

I can't speak for dual wield classes, but as a Paladin, wielding a weapon under or equal to 10 weight never caused the yellow bar to budge, not even with haste. Weapons over 10 weight (Axe of the Iron Back, Wurmslayer, etc) caused the bar to gradually run out. Running out caused slower running, an inability to jump, and IIRC a stat hit. Might've slowed attack rate too; I never timed it. I can't vouch for how much the stat drain was...the only situations where I ran out of stamina tended to be emergencies where carefully checking stats wasn't a high priority. Having 100 or better stamina meant the only negative effect of running out was an inability to jump.

Note that players didn't stack stamina so heavily in those days because the HP returns from it sucked. Hence lots of melees, even some tanks, ran around with less than 100. As a side note, the Titanium client gives us more HP from stamina than I recall getting historically....I think it uses a more modern multiplier (stamina was improved as a stat in the post-classic era, possibly more than once). Don't much care enough to look up anything to confirm or refute that memory.

Dual wield classes seemed to complain about running out of stamina more, and tended to ask for a "zing" (remember that?) with some regularity, so it seemed to affect them more than the non-dual-wield melee'ers. I don't know what their weight limit was. Is there anyone on this board who can remember dual-wielding Yaks? Those were 4.5 weight each.

When P1999 first opened there was a badly implemented pseudo stamina drain active. It was ridiculously excessive and almost intolerable. They couldn't seem to get it working in a remotely classic manner so eventually they just turned it off. Apparently the massive (and varying per character) values for endurance used by the Titanium client makes it hard to simulate classic-era stamina drain.

Danth

Pudge
10-16-2014, 08:23 PM
When you ran out of stamina in the water.... You sank. You couldn't swim anymore, and that's why losing your stamina meant you drowned.

Each melee swing took some stamina, and the heavier the weapon the more it took. Weaps like wurmslayer weren't as good as they are right now because it weighs so much.

Also classic, hymn of restoration/sos + lute, still good when grouped with necros and shamans though less so since they only get lich and canni 2. Include negative MR from fufil's and resist songs that double as dmg shields? All of it nowhere near as good as in Kunark/Velious but still.

[PatChapp]

Originally Posted by Ennewi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Left out jig o' vigor which is easy to forget since the need for zings is almost nonexistent on p99, but with classic being specified it deserves a mention. Not that other classes couldn't restore stamina, but one being able to do it on an endless loop had to be valuable.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/a....php/t-89.html







Also classic, hymn of restoration/sos + lute, still good when grouped with necros and shamans though less so since they only get lich and canni 2. Include negative MR from fufil's and resist songs that double as dmg shields? All of it nowhere near as good as in Kunark/Velious but still.

Canni 2 is kunark era

[Ennewi]

Originally Posted by PatChapp [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Canni 2 is kunark era

Yeah typo. More than a few threads debating about whether 2nd version was even worth questing/buying, so guessing the difference is negligible.

[Karanis]

Originally Posted by greatdane [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

...that terrible single-pulse mana song at level 32 which is barely usable since it's not an actual buff that lingers.

Tell me you've never been a good bard without telling me you've never been a good bard.

The mana you can provide a caster group even WITHOUT cantana, just pulses, is pretty immense.

[greatdane]

Originally Posted by Karanis [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Tell me you've never been a good bard without telling me you've never been a good bard.

The mana you can provide a caster group even WITHOUT cantana, just pulses, is pretty immense.

Yes, if all you do is stand there and chain-cast Cassindra's Chorus of Clarity over and over, in which case your sole contribution to the group is some mana regen. You will be doing literally nothing else because it's not a buff song, it's a single pulse of 5-7 mana. No pulling, no haste song, no CC, just a glorified mana totem. That is not worthy of a spot in a group.

I love it when some imbecile comes in with the "haha ur bad at the game" and then vomits up some theoretical nonsense that nobody actually does because it isn't a functional way to play the game. But hey, if you want a bard who just stands there chain-casting mana song at all times, and you actually think that's what qualifies as a good bard, then knock yourself out.

But you're not the one who should be telling people they're bad at Everquest.

[Gloomlord]

Originally Posted by greatdane [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yes, if all you do is stand there and chain-cast Cassindra's Chorus of Clarity over and over, in which case your sole contribution to the group is some mana regen. You will be doing literally nothing else because it's not a buff song, it's a single pulse of 5-7 mana. No pulling, no haste song, no CC, just a glorified mana totem. That is not worthy of a spot in a group.

I love it when some imbecile comes in with the "haha ur bad at the game" and then vomits up some theoretical nonsense that nobody actually does because it isn't a functional way to play the game. But hey, if you want a bard who just stands there chain-casting mana song at all times, and you actually think that's what qualifies as a good bard, then knock yourself out.

But you're not the one who should be telling people they're bad at Everquest.

Yeah, Bards are kind of mediocre before they get Cantata.

[magnetaress]

U guys are so one dimensional. There really isn't an underpowered class just an underutilized class.


And the class that is the least leveraged? Probably clerics ppl play them like heal bots. It's so sad. Yet clerics can be really powerful workhorses.