|
|
#2771
09-14-2022, 02:05 PM
|
||||
|
Quote:
You have been trying to do better very recently since I have been calling you out on it. So I am glad I improved your posting. Civilizing PlsNoBan is at least one good thing to come out of this thread.
__________________
| |||
|
Last edited by DeathsSilkyMist; 09-14-2022 at 02:10 PM..
|
|
|||
|
#2772
09-14-2022, 02:07 PM
|
|||||
|
Quote:
Quote:
Of course - speaking strictly mathematically - 4=/=5, so it is unclear why DSM has attempted to bring this 5th character into the equation or why his posts would seem to indicate that he believes doing so is not an example of him moving goalposts - when it objectively is - hehe. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] | ||||
|
|
|||||
|
#2773
09-14-2022, 02:07 PM
|
||||
|
I’ll admit it. I told DSM about 200 pages ago I would take him seriously when he actually went out and gathered him some actual data with him in an actual group. Since then I have probably contributed a healthy 80:20 mix of trolling his eclectic ramble of nonsense vs actual active engagement in the false hope he will have an epiphany.
It has been enjoyable. We celebrated page 100 with many good times and laughter We rolled our eyes and got slightly nauseated with page 200 Maybe a party at 300? [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
__________________
Quote:
 . | |||
|
|
||||
|
#2774
09-14-2022, 02:08 PM
|
|||
|
Please ignore PlsNoBan, Troxx, Cyxthryth, Gloomlord, Karanis, Toxigen, Ripqozko, cd288, and Chortles Snortles in this thread. They are just trolling. They have accumulated almost 1000 posts that are literally just memes and insults between them. They shouldn't since this isn't RnF, but they seem to enjoy being silly in this thread.
Reposting the current state of the discussion: Thanks for the logs Allishia! It is much easier to do parsing this way. Based on the logs the Epic Pet is doing 80-90 DPS. For strong manning the argument, I will use a 90 DPS parse that also had a good number of damage shield hits. This is a mana dumping situation, not a situation where you are conserving mana between fights: ======Mage DPS Parse====== In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Burnout IV and a Muzzle. Pet DPS Parse: Pet Damage: 3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS Scars of Sigil Parse: Scars of Sigil Damage: 3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS ======Epic Mage DPS No Damage Shield====== 3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS 3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS for 1225 mana in 14 seconds (no specialization bonus due to spell being Evocation) 1225 - 200 mana from meditate = 1025 mana lost in the minute. 6955 in 42 seconds = 165.6 DPS ======Shaman DPS Parse====== In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Celerity, Maniacal Strength, and Focus of Spirit. Pet DPS Parse: Pet Damage: 940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS Bane of Nife Damage: 150 + (214 x 6) = 1434 for 425 mana in 5 seconds Ice Strike Damage : 675 x 4 = 2700 for 1000 mana in 28 seconds ======Shaman DPS No Damage Shield====== 940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS 4134 in 42 seconds = 98.4 DPS for 1425 mana - 416 mana cannibalized back (Torpor specialization bonus) in 27 seconds = 1009 mana lost in the minute. 5074 in 42 seconds = 120.8 DPS ======DPS Difference without Damage Shield====== Difference without Damage Shield = 165.6 DPS - 120.8 DPS = 44.8 DPS while both the Shaman and Mage spend 1000 mana total ======Damage Shield====== Damage Shield Parse: ======DPS Difference with Damage Shield====== Subtracting 11 from the Damage Shield number. The assumption is there will be an Enchanter in the party, which means you will always have a minimum damage shield of 11 via Feedback. DPS added by damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 22.3 DPS DPS added by damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 6.7 DPS DPS added by cast damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 12.5 DPS DPS added by cast damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 3.8 DPS Difference with Damage Shield = 48.6-67.1 DPS, depending on slow/tanking situation. ======DPS Difference in the Four Man Group====== The two groups are going to be Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman and Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage. According to Troxx's data, the average DPS a level 47 charmed pet with Enchanter haste and a Torch was doing 86 DPS. If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 120.8 (Shaman) + 6.3 (Enchanter Damage Shield) = 299.1 DPS If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 165.6 (Mage) + 18.8 (Mage Damage Shield) = 356.4 DPS with a Shaman. DPS Difference in the Four Man Group = 57.3 DPS ======DPS Breakpoints in the Four Man Group====== This is assuming the group is killing a mob with 8000 HP. The mob in the Mage parse had 8000 HP when you include the damage shield damage. 8000 HP / 299.1 DPS = 26.75 seconds per kill. 8000 HP / 356.4 DPS = 22.45 seconds per kill. DPS Difference in kill speed = 4.3 seconds It turns out both sides were right. At least Epic Mages are doing higher DPS than Troxx's data, but the extra DPS doesn't really matter when looking at the breakpoints. For reference, Fungi King has 17750 HP according to the wiki. That means a group with a Shaman is killing him in 59.3 seconds, and a group with a mage is killing him in 49.8 seconds. That means you are saving a grand total of 9.5 seconds per Fungi King/PH kill. You would kill Fungi King (1620 seconds respawn / 9.5 second saved) = 170 times in a row to get an extra spawn. That is 85 hours continuously camping the mob. We don't have raw log data for a focused level 60 water pet, which will be much more common. Therefore I cannot currently confirm the DPS difference between a normal Mage and an Epic Mage. Right now Troxx's data is all we have for the level 60 Water Pet, which is lower than the Epic Pet. It is up to the reader to decide if they think 4.3 seconds per kill is worth losing all the utility a Shaman has to offer. This is if choosing an Epic Mage over a Shaman in a four man group where you are choosing between Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage or Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman. I do agree with OP's choice of Necromancer/Enchanter/Shaman/Mage. With this combination you have maximum access to all camps via these classes utility, while hitting the DPS threshold. You could level up a pocket cleric for easier resing and CHing if you desire, you only need to level it to 49 for 90% res and CH.
__________________
| ||
|
|
|||
|
#2775
09-14-2022, 02:10 PM
|
|||||
|
Quote:
Quote:
Of course - speaking strictly mathematically - 4=/=5, so it is unclear why DSM has attempted to bring this 5th character into the equation or why his posts would seem to indicate that he believes doing so is not an example of him moving goalposts - when it objectively is - hehe. | ||||
|
|
|||||
|
#2776
09-14-2022, 02:11 PM
|
|||||
|
Quote:
__________________
Quote:
. | ||||
|
|
|||||
|
#2777
09-14-2022, 02:11 PM
|
||||
|
Quote:
This is just another goalpost shift to prove shaman wasted utility > mage dps. At this point, nobody takes DSM seriously. He's just a data troll vs a meme troll. | |||
|
|
||||
|
#2778
09-14-2022, 02:14 PM
|
||||
|
Quote:
I know you don't think having multiple healers, a dedicated slower, malo support, etc. doesn't help your group in various situations. You are just being silly to try and claim there is no benefit from bringing a Shaman. Something (utility) > nothing (DPS that grants you no additional kills per hour). This discussion has long since shifted from thinking about the best group composition to try and think about every way you could exclude a Shaman just to prove me wrong. It is very silly, especially since most people here would agree Shamans are very strong in duo/trios. But magically that benefit disappears when 1 more person joins the group. It is amusing to watch the mental gymnastics at play.
__________________
| |||
|
Last edited by DeathsSilkyMist; 09-14-2022 at 02:18 PM..
|
|
|||
|
#2779
09-14-2022, 02:18 PM
|
||||
|
I will say this: emergencies when they do arise are the responsibility of everyone in the group. 3 players in this theoretical group already have massive (the best) capabilities to deal with these circumstances: enchanter x2 and cleric for reasons that should be OBVIOUS.
Can a mage help out? Yep. It’s called using your pet to tank and lock down crap and/or unloading your mana bar. In a full, reckless/feckless burn a mage can crank out around 200dps (+/-) a bit depending on resists to get shit dead. If the shit is dead, no emergency. Or how about dash out of range and CoTH the cleric to wipe aggro and then take one for the team (suicide) so the group can hard reboot. Or heck even quick camp the inevitable wipe and CoTH the cleric back to a safe spot to rez in? None of this should ever happen (ever) in a group of competent players. So yeah. Mages do more than twice the damage of shamans. The group doesn’t need the shaman utility or safety net. So the mage is more than twice as desirable as the shaman. Glad DSM and I finally agree!
__________________
Quote:
. | |||
|
|
||||
|
#2780
09-14-2022, 02:20 PM
|
||||||
|
Quote:
Please explain what you mean by "a factual gain of nothing with DPS"? Do you deny that more DPS = mobs dying faster than they would vs less DPS? This really isn't hard hehe. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Quote:
Quote:
Another problem is that your post seems to imply that you believe that others are "just being silly to try and claim that there is no benefit from bringing a Shaman", but you have provided zero evidence to support this claim, thus it is an unsubstantiated (and probably false) claim. This really isn't hard hehe. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] | |||||
|
Last edited by cyxthryth; 09-14-2022 at 02:23 PM..
|
|
|||||
 |
|
|
Linear Mode
