most underpowered class in game?

[Danth]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I wouldn't put too much stock in that guide... It's either outdated or not that accurate.

That guide's outdated. It was written when P1999 was in Kunark. Hence for example everyone could get soulfires and Divine Strength did not yet exist, de-valuing those current-day Paladin advantages. That being said, for as old as that guide is, on balance it's held up pretty well and is still useful provided the reader understands its age and limitations.

-------------------------------------

I think calling mages the bottom is a bit of a "hot take." It's too strong for me really to agree with that claim. It's always a strong leveling character and is a very strong character overall when there's a level 50 cap in place. It's no worse than average range for normal grouping, strong for high-end farm groups, and somewhere in the middle for raiding. For level 60 solo it's also probably someplace in the middle. The only place it's clearly bad is high-level duo'ing. On the other hand, in the level 60 environment it doesn't really shine anyplace, either, so it's often over-shadowed. Overall I call it someplace in the middle, maybe low end of average. There are numerous characters in this game I'd rate similarly.

Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That guide's outdated. It was written when P1999 was in Kunark. Hence for example everyone could get soulfires and Divine Strength did not yet exist, de-valuing those current-day Paladin advantages. That being said, for as old as that guide is, on balance it's held up pretty well and is still useful provided the reader understands its age and limitations.

-------------------------------------

I think calling mages the bottom is a bit of a "hot take." It's too strong for me really to agree with that claim. It's always a strong leveling character and is a very strong character overall when there's a level 50 cap in place. It's no worse than average range for normal grouping, strong for high-end farm groups, and somewhere in the middle for raiding. For level 60 solo it's also probably someplace in the middle. The only place it's clearly bad is high-level duo'ing. On the other hand, in the level 60 environment it doesn't really shine anyplace, either, so it's often over-shadowed. Overall I call it someplace in the middle, maybe low end of average. There are numerous characters in this game I'd rate similarly.

Danth

I don't think it's a hot take. The easiest way to tell is by looking at what players actually do with their characters. I rarely (if ever) see level 60 Mages out in the wild doing random stuff. I only see Mages in raids to be honest. If the class was so great, why do people stop playing them at high levels, with the exception of raiding?

I see more Paladins/Shadowknights/Rangers in the wild, even though they are played less than Mages I believe metric-wise.

[Danth]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't think it's a hot take. .

Good. Threads would get boring fast if everyone agreed all the time. Respectful disagreement largely fuels internet discussions like this one.

That being said, I think the magician has a special concern: Call of the Hero. I've called it a character-killer before. It provides an immensely powerful motivator to park the magician someplace while the player does stuff using other characters. Because of that spell, all else being equal I'd expect to see fewer magicians out and about. I see more classes like rogues and wizards trying to solo and duo things out in the game world than I do magicians, even though those classes are definitely worse for that type of activity than magician is.

Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Good. Threads would get boring fast if everyone agreed all the time. Respectful disagreement largely fuels internet discussions like this one.

That being said, I think the magician has a special concern: Call of the Hero. I've called it a character-killer before. It provides an immensely powerful motivator to park the magician someplace while the player does stuff using other characters. Because of that spell, all else being equal I'd expect to see fewer magicians out and about. I see more classes like rogues and wizards trying to solo and duo things out in the game world than I do magicians, even though those classes are definitely worse for that type of activity than magician is.

Danth

I agree, and this is one of the reasons why Mages are the most underpowered. If they were more powerful, less people would become CoTH bots (unless guilds heavily increased the benefits from doing so).

I can guarantee you would still see more Enchanters out in the wild if they also had CoTH, for example.

[Jimjam]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I agree, and this is one of the reasons why Mages are the most underpowered. If they were more powerful, less people would become CoTH bots (unless guilds heavily increased the benefits from doing so).

I can guarantee you would still see more Enchanters out in the wild if they also had CoTH, for example.

They need group coth at 60 to stop them peaking too early. Something like that I could agree with.

[Danth]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I can guarantee you would still see more Enchanters out in the wild if they also had CoTH, for example.

You would since the enchanter is clearly overpowered. In the magician's case I regard it as a basically average character, that has a strong built-in de-motivator to actually use the thing. If anything it causes the magician to get an asterisk in this type of ranking. Most of the mages I've known who've continued using their characters up to and beyond 60 did not yet have that particular spell. Some of them followed the usual trend of largely retiring the character from active use once they got it. Horrible spell!

--------------------

With respect to levels, while characters gain power with levels, their *relative* power to each other does very clearly change throughout the level spread. It's the relative power we care about in this type of discussion.

Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

With respect to levels, while characters gain power with levels, their *relative* power to each other does very clearly change throughout the level spread. It's the relative power we care about in this type of discussion.

I agree. Mages unfortunately have a normal to above average "relative power" throughout their life, but it gets worse when they get into the higher levels due to lack of CC.

Classes like Rogues have a normal to above average "relative power" when grouping, and that should be considered more than soloing for Rogues specifically because most people know that Rogues are a grouping class. The difference is their "relative power" continues to increase as they level, and as they acquire more gear. They also don't have to worry about Pet AI problems when DPSing, as an example.

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I agree. Mages unfortunately have a normal to above average "relative power" throughout their life, but it gets worse when they get into the higher levels due to lack of CC.

Classes like Rogues have a normal to above average "relative power" when grouping, and that should be considered more than soloing for Rogues specifically because most people know that Rogues are a grouping class. The difference is their "relative power" continues to increase as they level, and as they acquire more gear. They also don't have to worry about Pet AI problems when DPSing, as an example.

Mages are better soloers than rogues.
Mages are better in duos/trios than rogues since their pet can act as a tank and duo with other pet classes.
They're pretty much a wash in full xp groups after the rogue acquires some respective weapons.
They're both necessary in the p99 raid scene.

Mage clear winner here.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Call of the Hero. I've called it a character-killer before. It provides an immensely powerful motivator to park the magician someplace while the player does stuff using other characters. Because of that spell, all else being equal I'd expect to see fewer magicians out and about. I see more classes like rogues and wizards trying to solo and duo things out in the game world than I do magicians, even though those classes are definitely worse for that type of activity than magician is.

I think the heart of why Mage's suck isn't CotH, it's that if you're not especially good at anything, you're good at nothing.

Druids actually have the same core issue: they can't do anything better than others. Solo high-level mobs? Shaman or Enchanter are better. Heal (in groups or on raids)? Clerics or Shaman do it better. Track? Rangers. Heck, even when it comes to SoW, Shaman get it before Druids!

Both Mage and Druids have things raids need (Coth/Mod Rods/Rip Sticks and PotG/Circles), so there's a reason to still play them in raids. But outside of raids, they have nothing they do best, so they wind up farming plat/gear for alts that can do something better, and then being retired.

So, I don't think CotH is to blame, it's the mediocrity of the class (well, of both classes, but Druids are less mediocre). But at the same time, it's hard to argue that a class which can do things well (but not best) is bad ... they're just boring.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think the heart of why Mage's suck isn't CotH, it's that if you're not especially good at anything, you're good at nothing.

Druids actually have the same core issue: they can't do anything better than others. Solo high-level mobs? Shaman or Enchanter are better. Heal (in groups or on raids)? Clerics or Shaman do it better. Track? Rangers. Heck, even when it comes to SoW, Shaman get it before Druids!

Both Mage and Druids have things raids need (Coth/Mod Rods/Rip Sticks and PotG/Circles), so there's a reason to still play them in raids. But outside of raids, they have nothing they do best, so they wind up farming plat/gear for alts that can do something better, and then being retired.

So, I don't think CotH is to blame, it's the mediocrity of the class (well, of both classes, but Druids are less mediocre). But at the same time, it's hard to argue that a class which can do things well (but not best) is bad ... they're just boring.

Agreed. All of the best classes have specialization. Unfortunately the specialization of a Mage is at it's best when little is known about the game (summoned items). On P99 where people know everything about the game, a lot of what makes a Mage great gets lessened quite a bit. That is why other classes like Rogues end up getting boosted, because people know what is best for the P99 metas.

As I keep saying, "underpowered" does not mean bad. Mages are not bad at all.