Highspeed rail is B$it

[Danth]

Originally Posted by Jibartik [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Like if both had no goverment assistance, you think that trains would beat out airlines?

If we had no government assistance we might well still mostly have dirt roads. Our highways are obviously government-maintained for the most part. Most of the major U.S. railroads, including all but a couple of the transcons, were heavily subsidized via government loans and/or land-grants*. Passenger rail, in particular, only existed in comprehensive form far into the 20th century because the ICC required the railroads to maintain the service (which usually lost money, even back into the 19th century) otherwise it would've died out even sooner than it did. The experience is the same in nearly any nation, and those nations which did not heavily subsidize their transportation networks usually suffer badly for it.

*If you want amusing reading sometime, look through archived newspaper editorials from the 1860's and 70's and you'll see opposition to railroad subsidy in much the same form as today: "It won't pay!" "It's a railroad through useless wilderness!" etc, etc. Times and technology change, people stay the same. So does the grifting. Look at the Union Pacific railroad's construction contractors and the Credit Mobilier scandal as prime example.

Danth

[Jibartik]

Originally Posted by robayon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

good because my previous references to zoroastrianism are absolutely not from a place of 'i understand this faith' but more like 'i think this esoteric thing is interesting because it was formerly common and now is not'

that one could make a comeback !

[Reiwa]

Originally Posted by Jibartik [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

that one could make a comeback !

It's the first monotheistic religion I think?

No matter how you say the name, u right. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Jibartik]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If we had no government assistance we might well still mostly have dirt roads. Our highways are obviously government-maintained for the most part. Most of the major U.S. railroads, including all but a couple of the transcons, were heavily subsidized via government loans and/or land-grants*. Passenger rail, in particular, only existed in comprehensive form far into the 20th century because the ICC required the railroads to maintain the service (which usually lost money, even back into the 19th century) otherwise it would've died out even sooner than it did. The experience is the same in nearly any nation, and those nations which did not heavily subsidize their transportation networks usually suffer badly for it.

*If you want amusing reading sometime, look through archived newspaper editorials from the 1860's and 70's and you'll see opposition to railroad subsidy in much the same form as today: "It won't pay!" "It's a railroad through useless wilderness!" etc, etc. Times and technology change, people stay the same. So does the grifting. Look at the Union Pacific railroad's construction contractors and the Credit Mobilier scandal as prime example.

Danth

ok ok yeah I agree with all of that, but kavah was saying that the only reason airplane tickets are cheep is because the goverment pays the airline industry and manufacturers, and if they didn't that trains would be better.

Obviously my answer to that question would be: nobody would or could ever build the train system without the goverment.

So yeah, let me change it to, if they each got 50 billion a year from the goverement - which would be better?

My argument still would be planes would be vastly superior.

Lets not even talk about the amount of eminent domain we'd have to just "give" the trains to be able to work.

Lets not forget what American above ground trains are like:



The arguments that like, japan does it well compared to how we would do it are completely irrelevant, because in japan they wore masks when they were sick before we even knew they ate bats in china.

Ours would be shit - as was the air travel system during the low low prices of covid:



So yeah in utopia, or type 2 society? Sure trains. In ours? No.

[robayon]

Originally Posted by Jibartik [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

that one could make a comeback !

Can't Get You Out of My Head

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/a-rar...b0537661888a74

[Reiwa]

Originally Posted by Jibartik [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

ok ok yeah I agree with all of that, but kavah was saying that the only reason airplane tickets are cheep is because the goverment pays the airline industry and manufacturers, and if they didn't that trains would be better.

Obviously my answer to that question would be: nobody would or could ever build the train system without the goverment.

So yeah, let me change it to, if they each got 50 billion a year from the goverement - which would be better?

My argument still would be planes would be vastly superior.

Lets not even talk about the amount of eminent domain we'd have to just "give" the trains to be able to work.

Lets not forget what American above ground trains are like:



The arguments that like, japan does it well compared to how we would do it are completely irrelevant, because in japan they wore masks when they were sick before we even knew they ate bats in china.

Ours would be shit - as was the air travel system during the low low prices of covid:



So yeah in utopia, or type 2 society? Sure trains. In ours? No.

Japan has an advantage in creating public infrastructure because they're a unitary state, like the UK.

[Danth]

Originally Posted by Jibartik [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So yeah in utopia, or type 2 society? Sure trains. In ours? No.

You see the same issue crop up over a hundred years ago. European, especially British, railways were able to run higher rates of speed than their American counterparts and could absorb the higher maintenance and still make higher profits due to their regions' higher population densities and shorter routes. During the 1860's for example, at the tail end of the wrought iron rail era, the Midland commonly was re-tracking itself twice a decade on its heavier-trafficked routes and yet it was one of the world's most profitable corporations. That kind of expense would've been ruinous to American railroads.

Air travel has a similar concern: It's great in low-density environments with modest load requirements. It rapidly falls flat on its face when population density gets past a certain point. Give the U.S. long enough that our cities start to look more like Jakarta or Tokyo and I expect rail will warrant a more serious look.

Danth

[Jibartik]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Air travel has a similar concern: It's great in low-density environments with modest load requirements. It rapidly falls flat on its face when population density gets past a certain point. Give the U.S. long enough that our cities start to look more like Jakarta or Tokyo and I expect rail will warrant a more serious look.

Danth

So yeah, type 2 civilization sure. The US wont make that long enough road you speak of, until we're no longer a petroleum based society.

The reason china and Saudi Arabia can is because they have a lot of money right now, are authoritarian, and are building everything basically from the ground up.

And they use slaves.

But for the free world to get there, it's either impossible or we have to invent warp travel first and get invited into a federation with awesome Vulcan type teachers to guide us.

[Danth]

Originally Posted by Jibartik [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So yeah, type 2 civilization sure. The US wont make that long enough road you speak of, until we're no longer a petroleum based society.

Indeed. Yet another part of why I support research and development of new energy sources.

[Jibartik]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Indeed. Yet another part of why I support research and development of new energy sources.

I wonder if we'll invent fission during ww3 (and then erase the earth with it.)