14 Children and Teacher Killed in Texas Elementary School Shooting

[Gustoo]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I really don't think it's very complicated: when there are laws restricting how many and where guns can be, by definition there will be be less guns available in those places for people to use to commit gun violence ... so less gun violence occurs.

Yeah that is what I am saying. A reduction in gun violence due to the decrease in number of existing guns (most significantly suicides) is not an indication of an increase in public safety.

An exactly analogous situation would be if hammers were banned and the government went door to door collecting hammers. We would see a significant reduction in thumb injuries and blunt trauma caused by hammers. But that does not indicate that public safety has been increased.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Gustoo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yeah that is what I am saying. A reduction in gun violence due to the decrease in number of existing guns (most significantly suicides) is not an indication of an increase in public safety.

An exactly analogous situation would be if hammers were banned and the government went door to door collecting hammers. We would see a significant reduction in thumb injuries and blunt trauma caused by hammers. But that does not indicate that public safety has been increased.

Yes, it does! Less people dying means society is safer, even suicides.

And there's a critical difference with your hammer analogy: we need hammers to build things. We don't need guns, or at least not beyond basic rifles for hunting and guns for jobs like security. Beyond those functions guns do society zero good.

[Gustoo]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yes, it does! Less people dying means society is safer, even suicides.

And there's a critical difference with your hammer analogy: we need hammers to build things. We don't need guns, or at least not beyond basic rifles for hunting and guns for jobs like security. Beyond those functions guns do society zero good.

Again you are making a fallacious jump with your logic. Less people dying by guns does not mean less people are dying.

We need guns to fight governments. This is so critical that it was the second amendment in the bill of rights. The critical part of the analogy is that blunt force trauma can happen via baseball bats and rocks, while murder can happen via vehicles and knives and propane tanks.