If I was in charge.

[Tethler]

Originally Posted by aaezil [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

necro A tier if undead zone but kind of accurate

Even without a pet to charm, I think necros are A-B tier at least. They really can do work in a group with twitches/heals/CC.

[Zuranthium]

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Group content tiers:

S - Enchanter, Bard
A - Cleric, Shaman, Paladin, Shadow Knight, Rogue
B - Monk, Ranger
C - Warrior
D - Necro, Druid, Mage
F - Wizard

Mage definitely not very good in group content.

Mage is plenty good for group content, they do great DPS. You've underrated them and Necro, while overrating Pally and SK. Even in late Velious era where Pally/SK are at their best, they lack the DPS or game-altering defensive ability to be one of the most powerful, particularly since only 1 tank is needed and it doesn't have to be one of the plate classes. Ranking that era:

S - Enchanter, Shaman (with Torpor)
A - Bard (with epic and played optimally, which is rare), Rogue, Cleric (sometimes overrated; there are times when other classes can provide sufficient healing while also contributing DPS, including Necro! More than 1 Cleric in a group is the worst diminishing returns of any class too), Monk (with Triple Attack and Two-hander/fist swap technique; not 100% sure on the DPS parses but seems very high)
B - Necro (A tier if good charm target is available), Mage, Pally, SK
C - Ranger, Warrior
D - Druid (without heal clicky and charm; A tier if there's a great animal to charm)
F - Wizard (without Manarobe or DPS clicky; D or C tier with top items)

[Samoht]

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Mage is plenty good for group content, they do great DPS. You've underrated them and Necro, while overrating Pally and SK. Even in late Velious era where Pally/SK are at their best, they lack the DPS or game-altering defensive ability to be one of the most powerful, particularly since only 1 tank is needed and it doesn't have to be one of the plate classes. Ranking that era:

S - Enchanter, Shaman (with Torpor)
A - Bard (with epic and played optimally, which is rare), Rogue, Cleric (sometimes overrated; there are times when other classes can provide sufficient healing while also contributing DPS, including Necro! More than 1 Cleric in a group is the worst diminishing returns of any class too), Monk (with Triple Attack and Two-hander/fist swap technique; not 100% sure on the DPS parses but seems very high)
B - Necro (A tier if good charm target is available), Mage, Pally, SK
C - Ranger, Warrior
D - Druid (without heal clicky and charm; A tier if there's a great animal to charm)
F - Wizard (without Manarobe or DPS clicky; D or C tier with top items)

Too many caveats, like requiring torpor for shaman to be S. How many shamans on the server have torpor? Shaman is not S.

You moved monk up to A for when they are already 60 and have an end game weapon? Once again, how many monks on the server are 60 or have end game weapons?

Pal and SK aren't there for DPS. Snap aggro is super important in groups, making them the best tanks when you include their mitigation. You knock their DPS but for whatever reason you included end game items when considering other classes, and their DPS isn't bad for group content when well equipped. Give them a reaver, narandi's lance (55+) or massive dragon claw shard, and it's on!

Nothing is explained on why you moved necro and mage up (by two!). Necro and mage are super conditional, like pets requiring mobs to be spread a part when root parking for CC or else they'll get killed or put mobs into summoning range at higher level. Their nukes are either bad or conditional. Necro has utility, mage has.. something.. maybe necro could have come up one. Disagree with mage placement, entirely.

Moved ranger down to same tier as warrior? Ranger should at least be one tier above warrior because they bring the same dps, but better aggro and much more utility.

[Allishia]

I think far as melee go it's 100% gear dependant and you can't really do a tier system...casters preist gear don't change much in how good they are in group so easy to tier them /nod.

[Allishia]

And any melee with avatar wep is going to do more dps then non avatar melee..it's a huge dps mod on it's own. Like a ranger with avatar is going to out dps a monk w/o it.

Only game changing caster tier item might be rend robe for wizard and maybe velketor boots for mage if dps is low enough the clickys actually land in time..

[Cecily]

Originally Posted by Allishia [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

And any melee with avatar wep is going to do more dps then non avatar melee..it's a huge dps mod on it's own. Like a ranger with avatar is going to out dps a monk w/o it.

Only game changing caster tier item might be rend robe for wizard and maybe velketor boots for mage if dps is low enough the clickys actually land in time..

With avatar an lol ranger is still an lol ranger. It's just a 10% boost in damage.

[Nexii]

Originally Posted by Allishia [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think far as melee go it's 100% gear dependant and you can't really do a tier system...casters preist gear don't change much in how good they are in group so easy to tier them /nod.

Even casters and priests gain a lot of power from gear. Robe of the Spring, Shissar Apothic Staff, Torpor are all game-changing.

The difference between having your epic and not as a mage is huge. And having a DPS clicky like Burnt Wood Staff or Boots of Bladecalling. Most of these complaints are from mages without those things. Or mages that are surprised that they are a support class for end-game raiding.

And if you wanna talk end-game meta, there's no class more vital to success in ToV than quad DA mages

[Zuranthium]

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Too many caveats, like requiring torpor for shaman to be S. How many shamans on the server have torpor? Shaman is not S.

You moved monk up to A for when they are already 60 and have an end game weapon? Once again, how many monks on the server are 60 or have end game weapons?

Tons of people are Level 60 with great weapons and I wouldn't call Torpor that rare, Blue/Red have been sitting in Kunark/Velious forever, and it's basically the only thing a Shaman needs to save their money for in order to be extremely effective at Level 60. I based that ranking around the typical Level 60 group, which is a very common thing.

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Pal and SK aren't there for DPS. Snap aggro is super important in groups, making them the best tanks when you include their mitigation. You knock their DPS but for whatever reason you included end game items when considering other classes, and their DPS isn't bad for group content when well equipped.

Snap aggro isn't "super important" in groups. Most content is handled by just rooting everything and besides, Velious era introduced more clickies that Monks/Warriors can use for quick aggro.

I didn't include "end game items", which are the top ToV or Sleeper's Tomb drops, those things are unrealistic to expect. Well, the Bard epic is in that area too I suppose, but I already wouldn't call them S-class with the epic, and yet you seem to think they are without it.

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Necro and mage are super conditional, like pets requiring mobs to be spread a part when root parking for CC or else they'll get killed or put mobs into summoning range at higher level. Their nukes are either bad or conditional. Necro has utility, mage has.. something.. maybe necro could have come up one. Disagree with mage placement, entirely.

Using pets is not super conditional and barely any space is needed to properly root park mobs apart. You root them and take a step back if they were in melee range together. Wow so hard. Pets can be used as offtanks anyway and Mage pets in particular are easy to chain summon if needed for that purpose.

Mage nukes are nothing special but not especially "conditional". It's an extra DPS amount they are contributing. You've ignored their other major DPS source of having a damage shield. Like I said, they contribute GREAT DPS to a party, and DPS is the main thing you want in this game, after your group has established the necessary tools to stay alive and keep pulling (and those tools are basically root, slow, and a constant healing source). The faster you kill the more you farm, which is the name of the game. Same goes for leveling if we are not talking about just Level 60 (and Mages only get more powerful in relation to melee with underwhelming gear).

Necro similarly can contribute good DPS (usually not quite as much as a Mage in group settings where they can't charm) between their Pet and poison DoT and lifetaps. They can do pulling tricks with FD if needed, they have root, and they also can heal people, sometimes enough to even be a sufficient sole healer for the party.

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Moved ranger down to same tier as warrior? Ranger should at least be one tier above warrior because they bring the same dps, but better aggro and much more utility.

Rangers don't have the same DPS as Warriors. Critical hits and Triple Attack put the Warrior ahead, and a maximized group will have the Warrior sitting in Berserk, which gives further advantage. Obviously the Warrior is a better tank too. Ranger utility can definitely be relevant, but also it can be unneeded, at which point they just have worse stats than Warriors.

[Samoht]

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Rangers don't have the same DPS as Warriors. Critical hits and Triple Attack put the Warrior ahead, and a maximized group will have the Warrior sitting in Berserk, which gives further advantage. Obviously the Warrior is a better tank too. Ranger utility can definitely be relevant, but also it can be unneeded, at which point they just have worse stats than Warriors.

Triple attack isn't til 60... did you reply to the wrong one, then?