Mage pet nerf 100% bot now....

[loramin]

Originally Posted by unsunghero [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But yeah, nerf chanters out of spite for mages. I'll just roll the server's 923752387 necro. Necros are probably 5x as common as enchanters on Green. There's even more mages in the mid-level zones that I frequent than enchanters, something I didn't expect

It's not about "nerfing chanters out of spite"; it's about being true to classic. Either we're going to be true to classic here, and that includes making mages suck as much as they actually did on live from '99-'01 (which I'm 100% for because, again, look in the upper-left corner) ... or we're not.

But no one can look me in the eye and say that we're really all about classic here ... when charming clearly isn't, and hasn't been for more than a decade. It's way too easy for Enchanters, but it's also far too easy for Druids ... even Druids with zero charisma gear and zero negative magic resist gear.

If charm was this easy in classic, everyone would have been doing it ... but the simple truth of the matter (as anyone with even half-remembered, clouded-by-pot-smoke memories of live already knows) is that charming was a niche thing on live in '99-'01. And it wasn't just because all those live players (an order of magnitude more than we have) were all idiots.

[unsunghero]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's not about "nerfing chanters out of spite"; it's about being true to classic. Either we're going to be true to classic here, and that includes making mages suck as much as they actually did on live from '99-'01 (which I'm 100% for because, again, look in the upper-left corner) ... or we're not.

But no one can look me in the eye and say that we're really all about classic here ... when charming clearly isn't, and hasn't been for more than a decade. It's way too easy for Enchanters, but it's also far too easy for Druids ... even Druids with zero charisma gear and zero negative magic resist gear.

If charm was this easy in classic, everyone would have been doing it ... but the simple truth of the matter (as anyone with even half-remembered, clouded-by-pot-smoke memories of live already knows) is that charming was a niche thing on live in '99-'01. And it wasn't just because all those live players (an order of magnitude more than we have) were all idiots.

I have not seen any empirical evidence proof that charming is somehow "easier" on P99 than it was in vanilla. And this must include comparing rates of breaks with people of equal charisma, because I believe that enchanters on P99 are sporting, on average, much higher charisma rates in the low-mid levels than enchanters in vanilla were. Saying it "feels" easier or that it "appears" easier isn't going to cut it

Also, charisma does not impact rates of charm breaks for druids or necros on p99 nor did it in vanilla (but I could be wrong about the in vanilla part, I didn't play a druid or necro in vanilla EQ, just chanter and shaman). If charisma actually DID impact rates of charm breaks for druids, then druids who chose to wear high cha would actually be MORE capable charmers

[loramin]

Originally Posted by unsunghero [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I have not seen any empirical evidence proof that charming is somehow "easier" on P99 than it was in vanilla. And this must include comparing rates of breaks with people of equal charisma, because I believe that enchanters on P99 are sporting, on average, much higher charisma rates in the low-mid levels than enchanters in vanilla were. Saying it "feels" easier or that it "appears" easier isn't going to cut it

Also, charisma does not impact rates of charm breaks for druids or necros on p99 nor did it in vanilla (but I could be wrong about the in vanilla part, I didn't play a druid or necro in vanilla EQ, just chanter and shaman). If charisma actually DID impact rates of charm breaks for druids, then druids who chose to wear high cha would actually be MORE capable charmers

You're ignoring my core point. For Druids, charm is their best leveling path here ... even though everyone who played on live can agree that wasn't the case.

[unsunghero]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's like you completely ignored what I wrote about Druids, and how even when they're not wearing any Charisma gear at all, charm is still their best leveling path here ... even though everyone who played on live can agree that wasn't the case.

Not wearing any charisma is irrelevant when the stat does absolutely nothing for them, nor did it in vanilla. They're not wearing any dex gear either, and leveling quite well. They must be broken!

edit: also quadding is probably faster exp than charming

[rewinder47]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's not about "nerfing chanters out of spite"; it's about being true to classic. Either we're going to be true to classic here, and that includes making mages suck as much as they actually did on live from '99-'01 (which I'm 100% for because, again, look in the upper-left corner) ... or we're not.

But no one can look me in the eye and say that we're really all about classic here ... when charming clearly isn't, and hasn't been for more than a decade. It's way too easy for Enchanters, but it's also far too easy for Druids ... even Druids with zero charisma gear and zero negative magic resist gear.

If charm was this easy in classic, everyone would have been doing it ... but the simple truth of the matter (as anyone with even half-remembered, clouded-by-pot-smoke memories of live already knows) is that charming was a niche thing on live in '99-'01. And it wasn't just because all those live players (an order of magnitude more than we have) were all idiots.

I don't remember charming being as prevalent back then, but I also don't remember everyone having the same BiS gear, and I especially don't remember everyone using GCD reset items. Charm breaks can be a pain in the ass without GCD reset, and though I wasn't a super hardcore player, I don't think I ever even heard of a GCD reset back then. We also didn't have Youtube tutorials on charming to let everyone know exactly what to do.

Time and knowledge makes a big difference. Look at what mages are doing in WoW classic as another example. Just crazy shit that no one was doing back in the day. It wasn't impossible, it just wasn't known about.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by rewinder47 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't remember charming being as prevalent back then, but I also don't remember everyone having the same BiS gear, and I especially don't remember everyone using GCD reset items. Charm breaks can be a pain in the ass without GCD reset, and though I wasn't a super hardcore player, I don't think I ever even heard of a GCD reset back then. We also didn't have Youtube tutorials on charming to let everyone know exactly what to do.

Time and knowledge makes a big difference. Look at what mages are doing in WoW classic as another example. Just crazy shit that no one was doing back in the day. It wasn't impossible, it just wasn't known about.

Yes, we have (unclassic) GCD resets here ... but no, it does not logically follow that because the (again, 10x or more) players on live didn't know about GCD resets, that was the reason they weren't charming.

Occam's razor applies here: it's far more likely that the charm mechanics here are more forgiving than live ... than it is that everyone live was an idiot, or that the only thing stopping them from charming was the lack of the goblin earring.

[whydothis]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yes, we have (unclassic) GCD resets here ... but no, it does not logically follow that because the (again, 10x or more) players on live didn't know about GCD resets, that was the reason they weren't charming.

Occam's razor applies here: it's far more likely that the charm mechanics here are more forgiving than live ... than it is that everyone live was an idiot, or that the only thing stopping them from charming was the lack of the goblin earring.

But you have no proof so stop bringing it up. You keep going on and on and on about this but it's just a bunch of crap until you prove it. People charmed. Just because you didn't do it or see it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by whydothis [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But you have no proof so stop bringing it up. You keep going on and on and on about this but it's just a bunch of crap until you prove it. People charmed. Just because you didn't do it or see it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

My proof is basic logic, the same as with Bard's AoEing 100 mobs. No one could "prove" that classic mobs weren't AoEing 100 mobs all over the place ... but everyone who played on live knew (and could support with basic logic) that they weren't.

Similarly here, if we have variables A (how easy charming is, mechnically) , B (player knowledge of tricks like GCD clickes), C (external factors like crappy internet connections), and D (% of charm class players that charm), where A + B + C = D ... it doesn't add up.

D is massively different here compared to live, so that means one of either A, B, or C, or some combination, must have changed to account for it.

But B and C alone simply can't explain the discrepancy: not knowing about GCD clickies and crappy internet connections alone do not explain why thousands of Druids thought root/rot was a faster way to get to 60. It does not explain why the vast, vast majority of Enchanters (and literally every one I knew on live) leveled in groups, not solo. It doesn't explain D.

So again, basic logic ... and basic knowledge of what live was like ... dictates that A is not the same here as it was on live. And that's to be expected in an emulated game where the original code is lost to time ... but it doesn't mean we shouldn't still strive to improve that emulation, and make it more classic.

P.S. And even if I'm wrong and A wasn't a factor ... even if Nilbog perfectly reproduced every last mechanic related to charm exactly ... if our goal is to re-create classic EverQuest here, and something (just like Bard's AoEing 100 mobs) looks massively unclassic because of B + C factors, we should still fix it ... just as we did with AoEing.

But again, I just don't see how B + C can account for the entire discrepancy.

[unsunghero]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But again, I just don't see how B + C can account for the entire discrepancy.

And the fix is what? I'm assuming these servers incorporated as much of the original code as they could

Maybe the designers should modify the source code with an artificial charm break roughly every 3-5 minutes and have the game give a message "You have been inflicted by loramin's hazy memories of live" when it occurs so people would understand

[Scalem]

Originally Posted by unsunghero [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

And the fix is what? I'm assuming these servers incorporated as much of the original code as they could

Maybe the designers should modify the source code with an artificial charm break roughly every 3-5 minutes and have the game give a message "You have been inflicted by loramin's hazy memories of live" when it occurs so people would understand

Who doesn’t like changes based off of people’s twenty year old memories and what they “feel” is correct?