Game Mechanics: AC/Level Mitigation & Backstabs

[Aadill]

Oh here we go, I found the "it":

http://goberserker.com/forums/archiv...hp?t-1576.html

fatbuk's post, right near the bottom of the page:

There are some obvious exceptions. Like rogues get double backstab at 55 and then have their min backstab jump from like 88 to 125 when they hit 60.

Originally Posted by Shiftin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Currently it looks like this
Level ratio damage Rounded Down
59__ 1.5__ 88.5... 88
60__ 2___ 120... 120

That's pretty close to matching.


Also as noted in an earlier post about the MASSIVE advantage of being level 60:

Similarly at one point a 59 wizard was absolutely useless compared to a 60 wizard with sunstrike, ice spear of solist, and all the good level 60 spells. But for the most part the class defining strenghts and weaknesses scale down nicely.



I think the backstab woes still stem from skill dependency as well as the possibility of AC values. Not only that, but any help in the form of parses given thus far have not been replicated due to a lack of data/cohesion.... also a lack of a test server (it's currently down, according to Uthgaard). I'd recommend going back and getting all the necessary information to be recreated or have a rogue from here get copied to the test server to be used. From there tuning can be adjusted by focusing on the BASE DAMAGE calculations for backstab using the backstab multipliers, level 60, and max STR. I would expect to find something totally different than what Kanras is seeing simply because it's using "real world" equipment and stats, not laboratory-created characters.

[Treats]

The only problem with Rogue backstab at the moment is the percentage you hit for minimum damage versus the percentage you hit for magic number damage. Based off the logs in this thread those parses should be something you would see from Trakanon/VP mobs that are 60+.

I just pulled this out of my ass but I look forward to leveling just so my DPS goes up by a few points even though my gear hasn't changed much since level 50. I use the gobby earring as a serious buff because I worry my ATK, which can reach about 1200, isn't high enough and is the sole reason why my DPS is shit. In reality I'm starting to wonder if the skills are what's causing issues for melee.

This is exactly how it should work. Posted this earlier in the thread. The component that has the largest alteration of hit distribution is Mob level versus Player level. The next is Attack. I am unsure how much less Attack plays a part in it though.

Another note here on hit distribution. Different classes have different percentages that all range between the three main numbers - Minimum damage, Magic Number, and Maximum damage. What was done back then was to use this for each one.

These are just made up percentages, they are not correct. For example, say you have a Monk that is level 60 and fighting a low dark blue (46). His hit distribution may look something like this:

30% Min, 60% Magic Number, 10% Max

Replace that dark blue mob with Trakanon and you would have an entirely different distribution:

75% Min, 20% Magic Number, 5% Max

Different classes have different spreads representing the damage tables also.

Monk vs Dark Blue mob (46)

30% Min, 60% Magic, 10% Max

Ranger vs Dark Blue mob (46)

45% Min, 55% Magic, 5% Max

Several factors affect these calculations - Player level, Player class, Attack, Mob Level, Mob AC etc.

[Shiftin]

Aadill, thanks for that link about the gap between 59 and 60.

Originally Posted by Treats [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The only problem with Rogue backstab at the moment is the percentage you hit for minimum damage versus the percentage you hit for magic number damage. Based off the logs in this thread those parses should be something you would see from Trakanon/VP mobs that are 60+.

I thought we had established in a prior post that you shouldn't be able to min backstab with duelist on. Currently it is still possible to min backstab with duelist. I don't know if this counts as a backstab or duelist issue, but it seems like one of them.

The lucy description of duelist is:
1: Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 100%
2: Increase All Skills Minimum Damage Modifier by 400%

So it should both double the max you can hit for and 4x the minimum for "all skills". Backstab is currently not being pulled in as a skill per duelist. Should it be?

[Aadill]

Originally Posted by Shiftin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Backstab is currently not being pulled in as a skill per duelist.

I've noticed that even with double damage shots in archery the damage is still the normal minimum (19 dmg min with a double is still 19 dmg min) so it's a widespread issue. Might need a separate bug report since this bug report here has gone through three different issues at this point.

[Baxter]

So many problems with rogues its hard to keep them all straight! Broken BS, broken duelist, broken sneak/hide dragging corpses. And if this post at http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2870 is to believed(posted 08-17-2000) bind would should cap at 70% post level level 50.

I am glad though we are talking about these issues and bringing them to light.

[dojo420]

..bind would should cap at 70% post level level 50.

This works (for me at least).

[Baxter]

This works (for me at least).

You're right. Last time I tried it wouldn't go past 50 but now it does.

[Treats]

Originally Posted by Shiftin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Aadill, thanks for that link about the gap between 59 and 60.



I thought we had established in a prior post that you shouldn't be able to min backstab with duelist on. Currently it is still possible to min backstab with duelist. I don't know if this counts as a backstab or duelist issue, but it seems like one of them.

The lucy description of duelist is:
1: Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 100%
2: Increase All Skills Minimum Damage Modifier by 400%

So it should both double the max you can hit for and 4x the minimum for "all skills". Backstab is currently not being pulled in as a skill per duelist. Should it be?

Must have missed that post. I'm unsure how the calculation would work with the wording from this description of the discipline. Would really need some parses from live to see exactly how that affects the minimum hit. I don't think minimum backstab would be 480 with that active, 120 is not the base damage of the weapon.

DUELIST (Level 59): When using this discipline, all hits landed by the rogue will be for at least four times the base weapons damage. This discipline lasts for 12 seconds, and has a base reuse time of 30 minutes. The reuse time for this discipline will decrease as the rogue gains additional levels.

Best I can come up with, haven't been able to find any parses:

Max hit = ((Offense + Strength) /100) * (Weap Damage * 2) * (2 + (Backstab skill * .02)

Min hit = (Weap Damage * 2) * (2 + (Backstab skill * .02)

So, a level 60 Rogue using an SCD with Duelist on, 200 strength, and max backstab skill:

Max = 585
Min = 130 (240??)

Same Rogue with Epic (15/25):

Max = 877.5
Min = 195 (Or 240??)

[Arkyani]

Just a word,

As a rogue with epic using duelist I NEVER did that much damage. Duelist only doubles backstab damage. It gives 4x to regular melee though. Usually duelist backstabs are in the 800-900 range with ragebringer.

[dojo420]

Rogues max at 225 backstab. Skill maxes are 252. 225 * 1.12 = 252. It means that the maximum normal backstab for Ragebringer is 533 iirc (no skill bonus, but 15 damage poker) while the MDoV's max backstab is 599 (+12% skill bonus and 15 damage poker). The max normal backstab on Bloodbath is 639 but I don't know of any 16 damage poker without a skill bonus to compare it against.

source

...and got into a debate on the max backstab was in kunark expansion with epic disc/nondisc...

The first number that comes to mind is 512, but I have no way to back that number up...

556 iirc..

553 and 1106 with duelist sounds right

source

15 Ragebringer 134/589 (134/637 Max with 12% BS mod)

Going off my old screenshots i deduced i had a 581 BS (i screenshoted a max double BS from using duelist at the time)

source (lvl 67 rogue with >225 backstab, see link)

Just some posts I found. No prove or anything.