Enchanter OP impact poll

[azxten]

Originally Posted by TripSin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Azxten continues to make outlandish, garbage claims without providing any actual reputable, empirical evidence.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...d.php?t=343453

Originally Posted by Dolalin View Post
So Torven sent me the logic they use on TAKP which I've given to the P99 devs. They took their code from a client decompile so it's as close as I imagine you could get to accuracy.

In a thread started by someone else the decompile evidence is obtained, posted, and given to devs.

As I've said elsewhere, I'm mostly repeating the work of others but people love to attack me for not shutting up and letting valid bug reports that impact core game mechanics fade into oblivion.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by TripSin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

First of all, you're wrong. If you think everybody was even stacking cha like they are now, you're just being completely ignorant. Second of all, that's not even my argument. But thanks for trying to misrepresent it. I like how you even use the quote function to misrepresent what I said. Absolutely pathetic.

Ad hominem means “against the man,” and this type of fallacy is sometimes called name calling or the personal attack fallacy. This type of fallacy occurs when someone attacks the person instead of attacking his or her argument.

When you resort to ad hominem, you basically just admitted you have nothing to say to my actual argument.

And speaking of that argument, if I misrepresented your position then tell me what I got wrong. But you can't have it both ways: either the 20x Enchanters on live were all incompetent (or only a tiny secretive fraction were competent, and they didn't share that super secret info) ... or a decent number on live knew how to play their class, and something is different, mechanically, here.

[TripSin]

Stop moving the goalpost. Let's see the videos of you charming through 5 mobs hitting you.

[Dolalin]

I've submitted some Channeling skill changes to the P99 devs, taken from Torven / TAKP, which are more classic and will rebalance the low level caster game. Channeling at low levels is very OP here on P99.

Ideally we could try to reimplement a few of the classic charming 'bugs' too, but I recognize that might be problematic:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...d.php?t=359961

[TripSin]

[QUOTE=loramin;3277124]

Originally Posted by TripSin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

When you resort to ad hominem, you basically just admitted you have nothing to say to my actual argument.

And speaking of that argument, if I misrepresented your position then tell me what I got wrong. But you can't have it both ways: either the 20x Enchanters on live were all incompetent (or only a tiny secretive fraction were, who didn't share that super secret info) ... or a decent number on live knew how to play their class ... but something is different, mechanically, here.

Says the person constantly making straw mans. Do you actually think every enchanter was stacking CHA? My posts with my arguments are there for anyone to see. I'm not just going to keep rewriting it all out for you.

[azxten]

Originally Posted by TripSin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Stop moving the goalpost. Let's see the videos of you charming through 5 mobs hitting you.

Don't worry we'll get there but I have to wonder, who is moving the goalpost? My videos shouldn't be the evidence needed, the decompile is, which is why I just linked it again in case you hadn't seen it.

I'll make some funny videos though, sure, and you'll claim it's all doctored or cherrypicked or whatever. Right now I'm playing with one of my children though so you know priorities.

[TripSin]

Originally Posted by azxten [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Don't worry we'll get there but I have to wonder, who is moving the goalpost? My videos shouldn't be the evidence needed, the decompile is, which is why I just linked it again in case you hadn't seen it.

I'll make some funny videos though, sure, and you'll claim it's all doctored or cherrypicked or whatever. Right now I'm playing with one of my children though so you know priorities.

You're the one who claimed you would provide those videos. I didn't ask you before that to do it, you just said you would. Now that you said you would, I would love to actually see them. So let's see em?

[cd288]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Sorry, but that's a garbage argument: there were literally 20x as many Enchanters playing then as there are now, and at least a decent percentage knew how to play their class.

There was an entire Enchanter forum dedicated to Enchanter knowledge, and if it was as easy to solo here as it was on live I guarantee that knowledge would have been known, and shared on that forum.

I mean by PoP enchanters were rampant on a lot of servers because the meta of charm killing had become much more known.

Charm killing as a strategy simply wasn’t as widespread through Kunark. By Velious you started to see it ramp up more as a result of people starting to realize how OP Enchanters were in terms of their toolkit. Before then people just didn’t fully appreciate it, they thought it was a CC and support class. People also thought pets stole exp from groups for quite awhile so people were asked not to have pets in some groups. People also stacked INT on casters aggressively...people min/maxing CHA just wasn’t a common thing, everyone thought that was just most relevant for bards lol

Another factor for the rampant number of enchanters from day 1 on P99 is everyone knowing what the extremely valuable items and camps are and knowing exactly what class can and can’t hold down those camps solo. Back then, that level of knowledge also wasn’t as widespread so you didn’t have the meta of “if I want to farm the most valuable loot, I need an enchanter because there are camps you simply can’t solo as another class.”

There’s simply so many things that go into why you see so many Enchanters that have nothing to do with things being incorrect mechanically. The only thing I agree with is that channeling is probably too easy on P99 vs. classic but as another commenter said I think you’d basically have to rebuild the client to solve that issue.

There’s been no other actual evidence of any other mechanics being broken. If there is, people would go post it in the bugs forum rather than ranting about it here.

[azxten]

Originally Posted by cd288 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I mean by PoP enchanters were rampant on a lot of servers because the meta of charm killing had become much more known.

Charm killing as a strategy simply wasn’t as widespread through Kunark. By Velious you started to see it ramp up more as a result of people starting to realize how OP Enchanters were in terms of their toolkit.

There’s been no other actual evidence of any other mechanics being broken. If there is, people would go post it in the bugs forum rather than ranting about it here.

Or maybe it's all the in era posting, people's memories, evidence, etc showing pets ran all over the zone, fell through the world, attacked group members, and so on that stopped charm being viable. Maybe we should look at the FOH guild postings specifically calling out charming in classic and charming for FG raids which had a 80% chance of death on any given attempt. We could look at all the classic in era references clearly stating Enchanter needed CHA for Charm. On and on all the evidence is there that yes, our memories of charm are exactly how it was, viable in certain situations like outdoor zones when SoW was available, absolutely not possible for a solo Enchanter to be charming packs of mobs in dungeons where they had no room if things went bad.

No evidence? Channeling? Why do people who make the same tired arguments about "people didn't know how to play" keep ignoring channeling being too successful and proven so?

This is getting old, just let the thread die, I'll make a new one. Thanks for the advice on clarifying messaging.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by cd288 (essentially) [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

People were ignorant on live

Again, that's what your argument boils down to ... and it defies reason. Yes, people on live were ignorant about certain things ... but they were not so ignorant that they didn't try to play their class. Again, 20x the number of people that play here (probably more) were all playing this class: experimenting with it, trying Cha gear, trying to solo, etc.

I tried to find proof of as much on the Enchanter forums, but it looks like Wayback doesn't have an archive past 2003 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] (https://web.archive.org/web/2019*/ht...es.net/forums/) I strongly suspect this is a big part of the problem: no one can "prove" obvious facts (eg. that classic Enchanters absolutely did think Charisma was important).

But look, people thought far less important stats (eg. Agility!) were important for their class. Enchanters knew Charisma and Intelligence were important, and they knew Charisma was related to charming. Maybe they didn't know the exact details, but the game made Charisma green for a reason [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So again, it defies reason to suggest that despite 20x P99's Enchanter population all trying to solo and group (because every class tried to both solo and group back then) the vast, vast majority of them chose to group out of ignorance. No, they chose to group because it made more sense to do so ... in the real classic EQ.