Next time

[Psyborg]

Unlike with Riot, we were able to engage in some tells with DB and have a rational conversation.

[Confit]

Originally Posted by Psyborg [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Unlike with Riot, we were able to engage in some tells with DB and have a rational conversation.

I’d like Wyman to send some tells before he dispells our raid targets. Maybe your clerics can send a tell before /ooc’ing during our CH chain to try to mess us up. Also would appreciate a tell before your apps cast Quickness to try (and fail) to trick us into thinking it’s SoW. And don’t forget to send a tell before you put 1cp in trade window to our trackers to fuck up bind sight.

Quit the holier than thou bullshit.

[greasemonk]

Originally Posted by Confit [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I’d like Wyman to send some tells before he dispells our raid targets. Maybe your clerics can send a tell before /ooc’ing during our CH chain to try to mess us up. Also would appreciate a tell before your apps cast Quickness to try (and fail) to trick us into thinking it’s SoW. And don’t forget to send a tell before you put 1cp in trade window to our trackers to fuck up bind sight.

Quit the holier than thou bullshit.

You rite, you rite.

Just like I assume your guild leader sent tells to Riot's leadership before attempting to use a port-bot character to train their engaged raid, then lied about doing it when asked about it.

Put your 'holier than thou' bullshit where it actually is: Bullshit.

[Confit]

Originally Posted by greasemonk [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You rite, you rite.

Just like I assume your guild leader sent tells to Riot's leadership before attempting to use a port-bot character to train their engaged raid, then lied about doing it when asked about it.

Put your 'holier than thou' bullshit where it actually is: Bullshit.

He was punished for that and so was this guild. Get over it. If you don’t like the punishment then complain to the staff.

The problem is that obviously there’s an atmosphere in Riot that promotes ill-willed behavior towards Freedom because it continues to happen on a weekly basis. Riot should spend their time playing the game, winning FTEs, and having fun instead of coming up with slimy ways to interfere with another guild’s raids.

[greasemonk]

Originally Posted by Confit [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

He was punished for that and so was this guild. Get over it.

No, your guild didn't punish him at all.

You gonna point blank tell me right now that he wasn't earning DKP the entire time during the ban?

[kaizersoze]

Originally Posted by Confit [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

He was punished for that and so was this guild. Get over it. If you don’t like the punishment then complain to the staff.

The problem is that obviously there’s an atmosphere in Riot that promotes ill-willed behavior towards Freedom because it continues to happen on a weekly basis. Riot should spend their time playing the game, winning FTEs, and having fun instead of coming up with slimy ways to interfere with another guild’s raids.

How was he punished at all lol. He can still log in and play, collect DKP, farm raid items like idols etc, and with shareds being a thing it basically means he just cant play his own characters and thats about it. He has 6 weeks of DKP bloat but can dump it as soon as his personal "suspension" is up. If he bought any droppables during this time, even not being able to get loot was rendered moot. Freedom as a whole had their punishment postponed until after a quake and all AG missed was one cycle where they picked a few targets and didn't try for much else.

There is one thing I agree with you on though, we do need to focus more on what to do next time and make sure people are confident stepping into roles that need to be filled.

[hotkarlmarxbros]

Originally Posted by Confit [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Quit the holier than thou bullshit.

Both sides, right?!

Except wait. Wyman got guild removed. There were no actual rules for ST racing (if you think there were, try asking yourself whether lev was or was not required and send me a quick clip of that race line). The quickness-gate was an app that was reprimanded, and the idea that there was even a problem smacks of a younger sibling wailing loudly in earshot of a parent more than actual harm.

And then on the other side, we have someone using another guilds bots without permission, actively boxing to do so, coordinating an elaborate train with DA to reach an opposing guilds engagement, obfuscating the IP and machine it was done from, bald faced lying to GMs when confronted about it, and how is that treated? Not guild removal, he is heralded as a martyr. The GMs chalk it up to "a pnp violation" and let him continue not only playing here, but raiding and calling shots, and everybody is supposed to show up to the forums and be nice about it or it is harassment? Is the idea that favoritism was shown in some capacity really that far fetched?

Not to mention the pile-on in the UN in the last couple of days. Planarity asks a straightforward question when an issue is brought up to him, whether we all should engage in a 'fraps or it didnt happen' mindset and every violation has to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, and only then can a measly concession or two be offered. For that he was instead gaslighted by the the pathological liar that Furoar is, and the...I don't know what you'd call detoxx. Slightly retarded? Either way, instead of properly engaging a topic he only really seems able to bluster about autistically, unaware that ideas and feelings other than his own exist in the world.

When is the right time to cast aside this tribal bullshit and look at the game and how you want to play it? The only time I run OBS when not raiding is when Furoar is in zone, because he has trained me and banked on me not having fraps and it paid off for him. Pretty soon, though, with this blind eye being turned to the quantifiable bullshit that is being heaped onto the server from ag (some) and freedom (a lot), in order to do anything in the game you will need to be constantly recording, taking time to write up petitions, and MAYBE the GMs will rule in your favor about it and toss out a "pnp violation" that hands the offender a slap on the wrist for all your trouble. Eventually nobody will be left on the server except the extreme autists that are chasing pixels and doing anything they can get away with under the negligent/apathetic rule of the server staff.

Seriously, if you were ever looking for an excuse to get away from either Freedom or AG, now is the time. Look at how the Zlex train was handled. After distinctively, albeit accidentally, training Riot on their stable engage, the call was made to get out of ntov in hopes that it could be conceded just before it was eventually killed. When Riot didn't kill it and instead waited for the concede, AGF decides they don't want to be denied a shot a Vulak for something as insignificant as a dumb Zlex train, so they march over there and kill it. I know we all want to root for our team, and other guys bad, and us good, etc etc. But do you really want to be one of the people marching towards a Zlex you know you know should be conceding and killing it anyway? Do you really want to follow Furoar while he is engaging in pathological lying to try to squeeze out any advantage he can in a stupid game of elf lawyer bullshit?

Ignore the forum warrior nonsense for just a bit. I am talking to each and every line member, and I'm letting you know that you are enabling the scumbag style of play that Furoar and Detoxx engage in, and have AG wrapped around their finger and are forcing them to do it along side them. You can absolutely make a difference by just not participating. That doesn't even mean you have to stop raiding. Riot is incredibly inclusive and will allow anybody to app and join save a handful of malicious and problematic players (detoxx, furoar, etc). Look at spending your dkp, start up talks with a Riot recruiter, have some backbone, and vote with your fucking feet. There are a ton of both Freedom and AG players that I miss playing with. DM me if you want and I can get you set up. Fuck these liars and their nonsense.

[Psyborg]

Originally Posted by hotkarlmarxbros [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Both sides, right?!

Except wait. Wyman got guild removed. There were no actual rules for ST racing (if you think there were, try asking yourself whether lev was or was not required and send me a quick clip of that race line). The quickness-gate was an app that was reprimanded, and the idea that there was even a problem smacks of a younger sibling wailing loudly in earshot of a parent more than actual harm.

And then on the other side, we have someone using another guilds bots without permission, actively boxing to do so, coordinating an elaborate train with DA to reach an opposing guilds engagement, obfuscating the IP and machine it was done from, bald faced lying to GMs when confronted about it, and how is that treated? Not guild removal, he is heralded as a martyr. The GMs chalk it up to "a pnp violation" and let him continue not only playing here, but raiding and calling shots, and everybody is supposed to show up to the forums and be nice about it or it is harassment? Is the idea that favoritism was shown in some capacity really that far fetched?

Not to mention the pile-on in the UN in the last couple of days. Planarity asks a straightforward question when an issue is brought up to him, whether we all should engage in a 'fraps or it didnt happen' mindset and every violation has to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, and only then can a measly concession or two be offered. For that he was instead gaslighted by the the pathological liar that Furoar is, and the...I don't know what you'd call detoxx. Slightly retarded? Either way, instead of properly engaging a topic he only really seems able to bluster about autistically, unaware that ideas and feelings other than his own exist in the world.

When is the right time to cast aside this tribal bullshit and look at the game and how you want to play it? The only time I run OBS when not raiding is when Furoar is in zone, because he has trained me and banked on me not having fraps and it paid off for him. Pretty soon, though, with this blind eye being turned to the quantifiable bullshit that is being heaped onto the server from ag (some) and freedom (a lot), in order to do anything in the game you will need to be constantly recording, taking time to write up petitions, and MAYBE the GMs will rule in your favor about it and toss out a "pnp violation" that hands the offender a slap on the wrist for all your trouble. Eventually nobody will be left on the server except the extreme autists that are chasing pixels and doing anything they can get away with under the negligent/apathetic rule of the server staff.

Seriously, if you were ever looking for an excuse to get away from either Freedom or AG, now is the time. Look at how the Zlex train was handled. After distinctively, albeit accidentally, training Riot on their stable engage, the call was made to get out of ntov in hopes that it could be conceded just before it was eventually killed. When Riot didn't kill it and instead waited for the concede, AGF decides they don't want to be denied a shot a Vulak for something as insignificant as a dumb Zlex train, so they march over there and kill it. I know we all want to root for our team, and other guys bad, and us good, etc etc. But do you really want to be one of the people marching towards a Zlex you know you know should be conceding and killing it anyway? Do you really want to follow Furoar while he is engaging in pathological lying to try to squeeze out any advantage he can in a stupid game of elf lawyer bullshit?

Ignore the forum warrior nonsense for just a bit. I am talking to each and every line member, and I'm letting you know that you are enabling the scumbag style of play that Furoar and Detoxx engage in, and have AG wrapped around their finger and are forcing them to do it along side them. You can absolutely make a difference by just not participating. That doesn't even mean you have to stop raiding. Riot is incredibly inclusive and will allow anybody to app and join save a handful of malicious and problematic players (detoxx, furoar, etc). Look at spending your dkp, start up talks with a Riot recruiter, have some backbone, and vote with your fucking feet. There are a ton of both Freedom and AG players that I miss playing with. DM me if you want and I can get you set up. Fuck these liars and their nonsense.

You of course realize what you just described applies 100% to Riot training FRAG kiters at LadyM less than an hour prior right? What was Riot’s response? Duru sends tells to our raid leader and tells him that Riot will be vacating the area and moving on. No concession, nothing. The difference is that FRAG stayed and actually killed the target because keeping blockers up is lame. Using this protocol, we returned the favor with Riot. We accidentally trained, vacated the area for a few hours, and gave Riot every chance to kill all of trips and possibly both twins as well. Instead riot wants to try and game a Zlexak concession to score a free Vulak. Concessions should not be weaponized but that is exactly what Riot did with the last Zlex a few weeks back and it's what you did on Saturday as well.

The big difference here of course is that FRAG took the time to go over the fraps again afterwards and we conceded 2x Zlexaks. We got crickets about LadyM from Riot but we decided not to push the issue because we weren’t particularly happy with the angles we had on the train. That goes to your point about fraps: gotta have them on because riot will train the shit out of you and not say a word. Just look at our most recent Vyemm fraps in raid concerns where Riot was chain summoning eyes to train our kiters. What Furoar did was completely wrong and we deserved our punishment and so did he. Riot escalating things with each cycle since then is going to blow up in your face soon enough.

You’re not the good guys and neither are we. Stop with the moral authority bullshit because I have a laundry list of examples that will just paint you as a hypocrite.

[hotkarlmarxbros]

Originally Posted by Psyborg [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You of course realize what you just described applies 100% to Riot training FRAG kiters at LadyM less than an hour prior right? What was Riot’s response? Duru sends tells to our raid leader and tells him that Riot will be vacating the area and moving on. No concession, nothing. The difference is that FRAG stayed and actually killed the target because keeping blockers up is lame. Using this protocol, we returned the favor with Riot. We accidentally trained, vacated the area for a few hours, and gave Riot every chance to kill all of trips and possibly both twins as well. Instead riot wants to try and game a Zlexak concession to score a free Vulak. Concessions should not be weaponized but that is exactly what Riot did with the last Zlex a few weeks back and it's what you did on Saturday as well.

The big difference here of course is that FRAG took the time to go over the fraps again afterwards and we conceded 2x Zlexaks. We got crickets about LadyM from Riot but we decided not to push the issue because we weren’t particularly happy with the angles we had on the train. That goes to your point about fraps: gotta have them on because riot will train the shit out of you and not say a word. Just look at our most recent Vyemm fraps in raid concerns where Riot was chain summoning eyes to train our kiters. What Furoar did was completely wrong and we deserved our punishment and so did he. Riot escalating things with each cycle since then is going to blow up in your face soon enough.

You’re not the good guys and neither are we. Stop with the moral authority bullshit because I have a laundry list of examples that will just paint you as a hypocrite.

Did riot concede Lady M at 5% or some other scumbag "I know we are guilty but there is a system to game here" behavior? Nope. If you wanted to not kill it and gather evidence and figure out that you 100% knew Riot was in the wrong that was your prerogative.

Chain summoning eyes to try to train your kiters? Dude the kool aid is with that statement is intense. AGF won Vyemm, great job, really. In order to engage fesh, though, you and I and everyone knows you have to pull guards out to either kill or kite. Nobody was trying to train your kiters. That's a weirdo narrative made up by guild leaders and people that need to unbind push to talk. I was one of the monks pulling guards out. We tried to be careful, but too many cooks led to the guards getting too close to the kiters and they picked up aggro. Certainly not something that is deliberate, but honestly brings up another question of whether the vyemm kiters are forced to be respected effectively blocking access from fesh. It was an earnest attempt at fesh, the kiters were on the tracks of what a normal pull looks like. IMO Vyemm/Fesh popped at the same time should be a race to Vyemm with the competing guild(s) getting access to fesh in exchange for allowing the kiters to continue uninterrupted, and similar agreements for other mobs whose engages overlap. Otherwise the meta will devolve into some race to kite nonsense that then blocks access to another guild's earnest attempts.

All of this whataboutism or the 'hurr durr the guy on the other team said words' shit really detracts from the issue at hand that we are all facing. Look at how disrespectful and shitty Detoxx is when he engages with others in the UN. Look at Furoars history of lying, training, and as far as I'm concerned, the history of scripting/whatever accusations amount to a lot of smoke where I'm having a hard time believing fire doesn't exist. Shit, it was probably only a couple years ago it was Detoxx himself throwing the hackusations out there against Furoar. This is the landscape that we are all going to have to play on should these problem players keep getting license to continue to behave like this. And the only thing giving them license is the players deciding they want to be on the same team as these assholes.

I'm super happy that the UN is now viewable by all. Now we can choose our team rather than sit at home and wait for dad to get home to spin up a bullshit narrative. All I'm saying is for everyone to keep their eyes open, and for the vast majority of players to know that if you wanted a reason to leave a situation you feel is toxic or don't feel represents you, other options are on the table.

[Psyborg]

Originally Posted by hotkarlmarxbros [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you wanted to not kill it and gather evidence and figure out that you 100% knew Riot was in the wrong that was your prerogative.

The whole point was the Riot made it right by vacating the area and letting us kill it. We thought that was a great precedent to set rather than conceding at 5%. Leave, give us a chance to kill, no need to concede. We returned the favor on Zlexak and even gave extra time to kill more of NToV, but Riot decided to play Vulak chicken in predictable fashion.

Originally Posted by hotkarlmarxbros [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Nobody was trying to train your kiters. That's a weirdo narrative made up by guild leaders and people that need to unbind push to talk. I was one of the monks pulling guards out. We tried to be careful, but too many cooks led to the guards getting too close to the kiters and they picked up aggro.

We already know intent doesn't matter when training. Just concede Vyemm and move on. You know we aren't going to play games and we will kill it without trying to force you to stay up until 9AM for Vulak.

Originally Posted by hotkarlmarxbros [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

All of this whataboutism or the 'hurr durr the guy on the other team said words' shit really detracts from the issue at hand that we are all facing. Look at how disrespectful and shitty Detoxx is when he engages with others in the UN. Look at Furoars history of lying, training, and as far as I'm concerned, the history of scripting/whatever accusations amount to a lot of smoke where I'm having a hard time believing fire doesn't exist. Shit, it was probably only a couple years ago it was Detoxx himself throwing the hackusations out there against Furoar. This is the landscape that we are all going to have to play on should these problem players keep getting license to continue to behave like this. And the only thing giving them license is the players deciding they want to be on the same team as these assholes.

You complain about whataboutism and then engage in whataboutism. Awesome.

Originally Posted by hotkarlmarxbros [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm super happy that the UN is now viewable by all. Now we can choose our team rather than sit at home and wait for dad to get home to spin up a bullshit narrative. All I'm saying is for everyone to keep their eyes open, and for the vast majority of players to know that if you wanted a reason to leave a situation you feel is toxic or don't feel represents you, other options are on the table.

Riot is no better than the next guy. People are going to be more apt to leave you then stay if you keep pulling non-competitive moves like purposefully waiting to unlock Vulak until 9AM. Gross dude.