Please check my math on Troll vs Ogre Shaman

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Sacer [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Again, it's like saying c2 is a waste cause you can kill the same thing without, but you do realise more mana = faster kills and if fights are quicker it's safer and you can kill more things? [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

May be it's you that speak without having a 60 shaman with torpor. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]


edit : oh and yeah I am one of those 60 shaman that wear fungi and bag vindi bp most of the time, and also cast regen on myself

From earlier in the thread:

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

at 60 you don't grind, you farm, and whether that's in a group or solo it's not about optimum efficiency, it's just about having enough to get the job done.

Just in case that isn't clear: it doesn't matter how long it takes to kill something ... IF you're just going to sit there and do nothing after, while you wait for the respawn. Since Verant never put a ton of named mobs with good loot together in the same room, and mobs with good loot tend to have significant respawn time, there's a practical upper limit to how many such mobs a Shaman can farm at once (and even within that limit there is diminishing returns: you kill the mobs with the best loot first and it gets worse from there).

The "most clustered" nameds I can think of are places like Seb Crypt or PoM A4, where you have several nameds in rooms close together, and if the server isn't busy a single Shaman can do all of them. It's been awhile since I did Crypt, but I do A4 all the time (modulo 22; he's not worth the hassle to me). When I do, I have like half an hour of sitting on my hands after I finish, so there is zero benefit to killing the mobs any faster ... and having 35 minutes to sit on my hands.

So look, you can calculate numbers on the back of a napkin all you want, but ultimately the in-game context matters. If that context is that you're farming HQ ore in Permafrost by killing low level mobs, I'll agree with you: you should Regrowth yourself to kill faster [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] And maybe a Troll can even farm 20pp/hour (or whatever) faster at 60 in Permafrost. But to me that doesn't make them the better race at 60, when Ogres can survive more (even if only by the tiniest of fractions) on the hard fights.

[sonofbaal]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

From earlier in the thread:


Just in case that isn't clear: it doesn't matter how long it takes to kill something ... IF you're just going to sit there and do nothing after, while you wait for the respawn. Since Verant never put a ton of named mobs with good loot together in the same room, and mobs with good loot tend to have significant respawn time, there's a practical upper limit to how many such mobs a Shaman can farm at once (and even within that limit there is diminishing returns: you kill the mobs with the best loot first and it gets worse from there).

The "most clustered" nameds I can think of are places like Seb Crypt or PoM A4, where you have several nameds in rooms close together, and if the server isn't busy a single Shaman can do all of them. It's been awhile since I did Crypt, but I do A4 all the time (modulo 22; he's not worth the hassle to me). When I do, I have like half an hour of sitting on my hands after I finish, so there is zero benefit to killing the mobs any faster ... and having 35 minutes to sit on my hands.

So look, you can calculate numbers on the back of a napkin all you want, but ultimately the in-game context matters. If that context is that you're farming HQ ore in Permafrost by killing low level mobs, I'll agree with you: you should Regrowth yourself to kill faster [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] And maybe a Troll can even farm 20pp/hour (or whatever) faster at 60 in Permafrost. But to me that doesn't make them the better race at 60, when Ogres can survive more (even if only by the tiniest of fractions) on the hard fights.

also don't forget, getting off a spell earlier that wasn't bashed can save health as well.
Do you think in an hour of a hard camp you would save 7000ish health from fsi?

[loramin]

You'd have to ask a 60 Ogre Shaman [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] I have a 60 Shaman, and I have an Ogre ... but not both at once.

To be honest though, I doubt it saves anywhere close to that much, just based on the numbers I've seen thrown around.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by sonofbaal [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

also don't forget, getting off a spell earlier that wasn't bashed can save health as well.
Do you think in an hour of a hard camp you would save 7000ish health from fsi?

You keep thinking in terms of HP per hour. That doesnt really matter for a Torpor Shaman. You can recover your entire HP and Mana pool in 5 minutes or less. Loramin gave some great, practical examples of Shaman camps, and the downtime you have between pops.

Even in Chardok where respawn times are quick, recovery is not an issue between spawns. The problem is dying. Preventing dying is more important than getting 4 free torpors of health per hour from 8 HP regen per tick. That is saving 2 minutes of Torporing per hour. Dying takes longer than 2 minutes to recover from. FSI gives you a better leg up in terms of preventing death.

EDIT: Also, people keep assuming you will be under 100% HP for the full hour. This is not true on a Torpor Shaman. I am often at full HP and Mana in between spawns. At that point, regeneration is doing just as much good as Frontal Stun Immunity. You are saving 2 minutes of Torporing per hour at BEST, assuming you can always keep your HP under 100%. In a 10 minute fight, you are mitigating 800 HP in damage at BEST. On a hard monster, that is roughly 4-6 hits, at best. If your fight was solely determined by an extra 4-6 hits, it was a super close fight. FSI could have saved you as well in that kind of a razor close fight.

To Baler's earlier point about mitigating DoTs with regeneration. You can get high resistances on a Shaman. There are other ways to reduce DoT damage than raw regeneration. Resisting the DoT completely is a good alternative. If the difference between life and death was a reduction in DoT damage by 8 damage per tick, it was also a very close fight.

[Baler]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

To Baler's earlier point about mitigating DoTs with regeneration. You can get high resistances on a Shaman. There are other ways to reduce DoT damage than raw regeneration. Resisting the DoT completely is a good alternative. If the difference between life and death was a reduction in DoT damage by 8 damage per tick, it was also a very close fight.

Resistances have ZERO to do with racial bonus difference between ogre and troll.
invalid point on this topic. Both races can stack resistances, woo woopty doo.

----
Troll
=Racial Regen
==+12 hp standing
==+14 hp feigned (shaman can FD, bet you didn't know that)
==+18 hp Sitting
==Reduced damage taken per tick by amount of additional regen
===Dot, Melee, DD, etc (if you take 20 damage, then server tick, you recovered 12, making that damage 8)
==Can't be blocked / turned off / disabled
==Saves a lot of time canni dancing during your shaman career
==Faster wipe recovery
==Possible difference between life and death

Has no downside.

Ogre
=Frontal Stun Immunity
==Frontal 180 degrees only
==Stun Immunity only
==Saves a few seconds in some fights
===only enough time saved for 1 spell or less per stun
==Possible difference between life and death

Downsides
Can be stunned from behind 180 degrees
Doesn't prevent interrupts or being pushed

Torpor
=Troll
==+312 hp Standing
==+314 hp Feigned
==+318 hp Sitting

=Ogre
==+304 hp Standing
==+305 hp Feigned
==+307 hp Sitting

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Baler [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Resistances have ZERO to do with racial bonus difference between ogre and troll.
invalid point on this topic. Both races can stack resistances, woo woopty doo.

----
Troll
=Racial Regen
==+12 hp standing
==+14 hp feigned (shaman can FD, bet you didn't know that)
==+18 hp Sitting
==Reduced damage taken per tick by amount of additional regen
===Dot, Melee, DD, etc (if you take 20 damage, then server tick, you recovered 12, making that damage 8)
==Can't be blocked / turned off / disabled
==Saves a lot of time canni dancing during your shaman career
==Faster wipe recovery
==Possible difference between life and death

Has no downside.

Ogre
=Frontal Stun Immunity
==Frontal 180 degrees only
==Stun Immunity only
==Saves a few seconds in some fights
===only enough time saved for 1 spell or less per stun
==Possible difference between life and death

Downsides
Can be stunned from behind 180 degrees
Doesn't prevent interrupts or being pushed

Torpor
=Troll
==+312 hp Standing
==+314 hp Feigned
==+318 hp Sitting

=Ogre
==+304 hp Standing
==+305 hp Feigned
==+307 hp Sitting

No one here has argued about the utility of regeneration before you get Torpor. I am talking about which race is better with Torpor.

Yes, equipment does play a role in this discussion. You can get HP regeneration gear. You can't get FSI gear. Most DoTs a solo Shaman will encounter are consistently resistable. The HP regeneration isn't anywhere near make or break when you are dotted, and you can usually avoid being dotted with gear.

Regenration only works while your HP isn't full. On a Torpor Shaman, you HP bar is often full, due to how easy it is to heal youself between fights.

During a 10 minute fight, you gain 800 HP at best on a Troll. That is only 4-6 hits from a tough mob. Any fight that is decided by 800 hp is a super close fight. FSI could save you in a fight like that too.

Needing to regenerate while FD is a very rare use case for Shamans. You would need to FD in a bad spot, where you will get attacked after you get up. FSI is useful in this situation too. You have a better chance of getting a spell off after you stand up and start getting attacked.

You also keep ignoring the fact that stuns interrupt spells. Not being stunned means the spell can finish casting, if the bash component didn't trigger an interrupt. On a Troll, a bash with a stun is a guaranteed interrupt. It is not guaranteed on an Ogre.

[Baler]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

During a 10 minute fight, you gain 800 HP at best on a Troll. That is only 4-6 hits from a tough mob. Any fight that is decided by 800 hp is a super close fight. FSI could save you in a fight like that too.

Needing to regenerate while FD is a very rare use case for Shamans. You would need to FD in a bad spot, where you will get attacked after you get up. FSI is useful in this situation too. You have a better chance of getting a spell off after you stand up and start getting attacked.

You also keep ignoring the fact that stuns interrupt spells. Not being stunned means the spell can finish casting, if the bash component didn't trigger an interrupt. On a Troll, a bash with a stun is a guaranteed interrupt. It is not guaranteed on an Ogre.

Racial Regen works before a fight, after a fight and continues on forever.
It makes buffing yourself and others quicker and a smoother process.
it makes recovering from the fight quicker and smoother.

You are correct needing regen for FD is rare for shm. But that's simply because the FD the shaman gets is basiclly a Toy, has 2 charges and can be recharged once in the field for 4 feign deaths total. I just wanted to throw it in there because after a successful FD (running down into a dungeon solo) you'll be regening your hp faster.

Finally, I have not ignored the fact that FSI grants 180 degree frontal stun immunity. If you're stunned you can't cast spells. I havn't been ignoring this. I've been saying that it only affects frontal stuns, it doesn't affect regular interrupts or being pushed. Which means you're sacrificing more HP every tick for 0 to 20 seconds of stun time per fight. And it's pretty god damn rare that you'll be stunned for 20 seconds during a fight. Which unless you've forgotten will be in 2-5s segements. So a 10 minute fight with say 5 stuns that lasted 4 seconds each. You talk about an able torpor shaman, why isnt your god damn torpor up to cover these very short moments during a fight?

I'm telling you folks these ogre loving *** will refuse to the very end because they've been told what's best without trying it for themselves. I've played every race except iksar at level 60 with torpor in raid gear. And i'll tell you right god damn now..

Troll Shaman > Ogre Shaman

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Baler [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Racial Regen works before a fight, after a fight and continues on forever.
It makes buffing yourself and others quicker and a smoother process.
it makes recovering from the fight quicker and smoother.

You are correct needing regen for FD is rare for shm. But that's simply because the FD the shaman gets is basiclly a Toy, has 2 charges and can be recharged once in the field for 4 feign deaths total. I just wanted to throw it in there because after a successful FD (running down into a dungeon solo) you'll be regening your hp faster.

Finally, I have not ignored the fact that FSI grants 180 degree frontal stun immunity. If you're stunned you can't cast spells. I havn't been ignoring this. I've been saying that it only affects frontal stuns, it doesn't affect regular interrupts or being pushed. Which means you're sacrificing more HP every tick for 0 to 20 seconds of stun time per fight. And it's pretty god damn rare that you'll be stunned for 20 seconds during a fight. Which unless you've forgotten will be in 2-5s segements. So a 10 minute fight with say 5 stuns that lasted 4 seconds each. You talk about an able torpor shaman, why isnt your god damn torpor up to cover these very short moments during a fight?

I'm telling you folks these ogre loving *** will refuse to the very end because they've been told what's best without trying it for themselves. I've played every race except iksar at level 60 with torpor in raid gear. And i'll tell you right god damn now..

Troll Shaman > Ogre Shaman

The reason why I keep saying you are ignoring Stuns is because you keep making the assumption that Torpor is always up. Any 60 Shaman knows that Torpor can be interrupted. It has a 6 second cast time. Any interrupt to a Torpor cast means you are Torpor-less for 8 seconds at least (2 for the stun, 6 for recast). You are also somehow thinking a 60 Shaman doesn't know how to keep a mob in front of them. Even without FSI, you never want a mob to attack you from behind. You lose your ability to dodge. The only time a mob will attack you from behind is if you make a mistake in understanding the zone you are fighting in. This would be something like a pathing mob sneaking up on you, not keeping respawn timers, etc. That is a deadly mistake for any Shaman race, and no racial will help you then.

If you get interrupted on a Slow when a mob is hitting you, you are losing a LOT of HP in the 6 seconds or so it takes to re-cast Turgurs insects. The 16 HP you will regain in 12 seconds will not hold a candle to the damage you have taken. This is where an Ogre shines. The Ogre may not get interrupted on that Slow, which means they have saved 6 seconds or more of un-slowed attacks. When fighting WW dragons, for example, getting hit unslowed for 10 seconds or so can easily go above the total HP you will recover for the entire fight as a Troll. Ogres can completely prevent that 10 seconds of damage by getting the slow landed right away.

If you suggest that HP regeneration as a damage mitigation tool is superior to FSI, then your Troll master race argument fails anyway. Iksars have an AC bonus AND better racial resistances, making them the best race, under that logic.

In terms of Soloing, HP regeneration barely plays a roll in recovering from a fight. You can fully recover in 5 minutes or less. 8 HP regeneration per tick in 5 minutes is 400 HP. That is 1/3 of a Torpor. So you save maybe 30 seconds of recovery time at best, if that 400 hp allows you to cast one less torpor.

In terms of raid recovery, yes Trolls and Iksars have an edge. However, most big raid guilds have more Shamans than they need. So most raids get Shaman buffs extremely quickly anyway in reality. The lack of Troll/Iksar regeneration will not cause your raid to lose a mob in. I have been on a lot of raid where time was a factor, and a lost mob was never caused by a slight slowdown in Shaman buffs.

I play an Ogre and a Troll regularly. I can easily see the differences in how often they get interrupted spell wise. The Troll gets interrupted more, due to stuns.

[Baler]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The reason why I keep saying you are ignoring Stuns is because you keep making the assumption that Torpor is always up. Any 60 Shaman knows that Torpor can be interrupted. It has a 6 second cast time. Any interrupt to a Torpor cast means you are Torpor-less for 8 seconds at least (2 for the stun, 6 for recast). You are also somehow thinking a 60 Shaman doesn't know how to keep a mob in front of them. Even without FSI, you never want a mob to attack you from behind. You lose your ability to dodge. The only time a mob will attack you from behind is if you make a mistake in understanding the zone you are fighting in. This would be something like a pathing mob sneaking up on you, not keeping respawn timers, etc. That is a deadly mistake for any Shaman race, and no racial will help you then.

You're the one who brought torpor being the topic of discussion at this point into view.
You continue to ignore the points I made blindly spouting nothingness about why fsi is better but not proving it is.
Dragging irrelevant info like spawn timers, give me a break. This is a discussion about troll vs ogre.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you get interrupted on a Slow when a mob is hitting you, you are losing a LOT of HP in the 6 seconds or so it takes to re-cast Turgurs insects. The 16 HP you will regain in 12 seconds will not hold a candle to the damage you have taken. This is where an Ogre shines. The Ogre may not get interrupted on that Slow, which means they have saved 6 seconds or more of un-slowed attacks. When fighting WW dragons, for example, getting hit unslowed for 10 seconds or so can easily go above the total HP you will recover for the entire fight as a Troll. Ogres can completely prevent that 10 seconds of damage by getting the slow landed right away.

If you're not keeping the target slowed 99% of the time you're just a bad shaman, it doesn't matter what race you are.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you suggest that HP regeneration as a damage mitigation tool is superior to FSI, then your Troll master race argument fails anyway. Iksars have an AC bonus AND better racial resistances, making them the best race, under that logic.

I only brought the additional hp per tick as a damage mitigation tool in the scope of troll vs ogre.
Yes iksar does get an AC bonus but is not the min/max race for shaman. More irrelevance.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In terms of Soloing, HP regeneration barely plays a roll in recovering from a fight. You can fully recover in 5 minutes or less. 8 HP regeneration per tick in 5 minutes is 400 HP. That is 1/3 of a Torpor. So you save maybe 30 seconds of recovery time at best, if that 400 hp allows you to cast one less torpor.

trust me 30 seconds of recovery time is HUGE after a raid wipe or group wipe. And it continues on into buffing your party.
30 seconds less buffing
30 seconds less recovering
etc, that shit adds up.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In terms of raid recovery, yes Trolls and Iksars have an edge. However, most big raid guilds have more Shamans than they need. So most raids get Shaman buffs extremely quickly anyway in reality. The lack of Troll/Iksar regeneration will not cause your raid to lose a mob in. I have been on a lot of raid where time was a factor, and a lost mob was never caused by a slight slowdown in Shaman buffs.

Iksars don't have the edge because their stats are that of a human and require even more twinkage to hit those 200 stats markers.
Other than slow, a shaman has never made or breaked a raid. I'm really not seeing what you're trying to say here. As if FSI is going to somehow make the raid better when the raid mob is punching the warrior in the face, not the shaman. Regen still wins on this null point.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I play an Ogre and a Troll regularly. I can easily see the differences in how often they get interrupted spell wise. The Troll gets interrupted more, due to stuns.

Stuns. Period. that's it, they still get interrupted and pushed the same as troll.
stop repeating yourself, you're making me repeat myself.

----------
Cannibalize IV
Decrease Hitpoints by 148

Per Tick Standing
Troll -136 HP per Canni 4
Ogre -143 HP per Canni 4

Racial Regen still winning

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Baler [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You're the one who brought torpor being the topic of discussion at this point into view.
You continue to ignore the points I made blindly spouting nothingness about why fsi is better but not proving it is.
Dragging irrelevant info like spawn timers, give me a break. This is a discussion about troll vs ogre.


If you're not keeping the target slowed 99% of the time you're just a bad shaman, it doesn't matter what race you are.


I only brought the additional hp per tick as a damage mitigation tool in the scope of troll vs ogre.
Yes iksar does get an AC bonus but is not the min/max race for shaman. More irrelevance.


trust me 30 seconds of recovery time is HUGE after a raid wipe or group wipe. And it continues on into buffing your party.
30 seconds less buffing
30 seconds less recovering
etc, that shit adds up.


Iksars don't have the edge because their stats are that of a human and require even more twinkage to hit those 200 stats markers.
Other than slow, a shaman has never made or breaked a raid. I'm really not seeing what you're trying to say here. As if FSI is going to somehow make the raid better when the raid mob is punching the warrior in the face, not the shaman. Regen still wins on this null point.



Stuns. Period. that's it, they still get interrupted and pushed the same as troll.
stop repeating yourself, you're making me repeat myself.

----------
Cannibalize IV
Decrease Hitpoints by 148

Per Tick Standing
Troll -136 HP per Canni 4
Ogre -143 HP per Canni 4

Racial Regen still winning

I have been talking about a Shaman with Torpor the entire time lol. Read my first post in this thread. I have also said multiple times in this thread Trolls are better BEFORE Torpor. Not sure where you saw otherwise. I have always been discussing Ogres at endgame, with Torpor. Ogres are better than Trolls once you have Torpor due to FSI.

You somehow live in a world where your Shaman never gets slow resists, or slow interrupts. This isn't how the game works when you are fighting hard targets, and multiple mobs. Sometimes things go wrong. A slow gets interrupted, a slow gets resisted, a fizzle occurs, you get stunned from an attack, a mob gets a lucky string of max damage hits, etc. These happen to all races. The exception is stuns on an Ogre.

You still don't understand how bash has two components. A stun, and a chance to interrupt your spell. The stun component is a guaranteed spell interruption. The spell interruption component is NOT a 100% chance to interrupt your spell. You can see this in action on any race, if you don't believe me. On other races, you can get bashed without a stun. When this occurs, you still have a chance to land your spell. I have seen this happen multiple times on my Troll. He gets bashed without a stun, and his casting finishes anyway. When my Troll gets stunned, however, he always gets interrupted on his cast. By removing stun from the equation, you reduce the amount of times you get spells interrupted. Period. This is a fact. Ogres get less spell interrupts, due to stun immunity.

I really don't understand how you can say "30 seconds is a big deal" and "spawn timers are irrelevant" in the same comment. If 30 seconds is a big deal, that is due to mob spawn timers lol. What are you going to use that 30 extra seconds for, if you are no longer fighting anything? Sitting at full HP/Mana for 15 minutes is the same as sitting at full HP/Mana for 14.5 minutes when you are waiting for a respawn. If you are keeping multiple mobs down, then spawn timers are relevant. You do not want mobs respawning on you when you are unprepared. When you are camping things, you want to keep all the mobs down, to maximize how many kills per hour you get.

I have been on a lot of raids, so I do not need to "trust" you about raid recoveries[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] I have never seen any top guild exclude Barbarian/Ogre shamans due to their lack of 8 extra HP regen. It is not a big enough factor to cause the raid to lose a mob. That is a fact. Too many shamans in raids is another common fact. Saying Trolls/Iksars are some sort of game changer in raids is just false.

Also, the Iksar comment is not irrelevant. In Velious, all Shaman races can max their stats. The only tangible difference between Troll and Iksar is their ability to use JBB vs. their extra AC and resistances. Every other difference disappears with high end gear. If you want to say that HP regeneration is a superior damage mitigation tool than Stun/Spell interrupt reduction, then you would concede that Iksars are better due to their additional mitigation from AC and resistances.