CORONAVIRUS Death Thread

[Baler]

Originally Posted by Domo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Didnt you Americans got " Trump Dollars " ?

I understand you're not from america and I respect that. I never stated america in anything I said. Your dislike for trump has nothing to do with this topic.

The fact is people have recovered,.. Keeping healthy people at home is a dictatorship.

BUT BUT BUT BALER the public health responsibility we have!!!
I'm not saying we throw caution to the wind and not test temperatures/Simptom,. or deliver contaminated goods to elderly people.

But to keep healthy people at home is destroying the world economy, not just a single country.

[Domo]

Originally Posted by Baler [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Your dislike for trump has nothing to do with this topic.

exactly. This is not a political topic. The Virus dont care what color you have or vote for. The Virus dont care if your economy is doing good or bad.
So dont talk about "dictatorship".

Originally Posted by Baler [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

don't listen to politicians.

You forgot to add "and dont listen to people on the Internet. Listen to the health experts and doctors" and they say "stay the fuck home until the situation is better under control".


I dont know much about the american military, but in the german military the highest navy grade you can get is the Admiral. As an Admiral you are the big Boss of the navy. But the navy medic have the right to even put an Admiral under quarantine if its to protect himself or the crew.

My english sucks to explain it in detail but I hope you understand what I mean.
You can believe and say what you want, but facts are facts.
And right now the best thing you can do is to keep as much social distance to each other as possible.

I understand that you are worried about your job and money you're losing right now, and I hope you get all the help which is needed. But being to lax during this situation right now would cause only more deaths and cost you at the end even more.

[Baler]

Originally Posted by Domo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

exactly. This is not a political topic. ...
...health experts ...

I understand that you are worried about you job and money you're losing right now, and I hope you get all the help which is needed. But being to lax during this situation right now would cause only more deaths and cost you at the end even more.

Media dictates that politicians are your "health experts" WAKE UP

In terms of losing money, it's not just myself... It's not just America,... it's several, if not all countries in the world. It's a great time to make fun of trump sure but it also applies to Europe and Asia.

Edit:PS. Domo I think we're splitting hairs and can actually agree on several things. We just don't communicate in the same way and thus butt heads.
I don't mean any disrespect to you. Even if im wrong or even if you're wrong. OPEN dialogue is important!!!

[BlackBellamy]

Originally Posted by Domo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is not a political topic.

Sure is! You can read back the previous 140 pages or just take my assurance.

I understand that you are worried about your job and money you're losing right now,

Roleplay out this scenario for me:

You are in charge (and also feel like you're in charge). You can introduce measures to prolong the lockdown which an expert tells you is going to save 100,000 lives. Another expert tells you that as a result, the unemployment rate will go up 12%. A third expert opines that for every 1% rise in unemployment, we can trace an additional 6000 suicides and the resulting inability to pay for medical procedures will result in another 14,000 people dying. The lack of money will also result in a worse diet, leading to a long-term rise mortality rate, which will have to be amortized over time, but whose exact numbers will be unknown until much later. All that unemployment is also going to fuel a crime rate increase which will kill a certain number of citizens and incarcerate others. A fourth expert tells you all those previous figures are subject to a 30% variance because those other guys are dumb.

Different classes of people will be affected by your decision differently. You decision will certainly be seen as political. Do you go for the best short-term outcome and destroy a country for decades or do you take the initial hit and power through the succeeding waves in order to have a better future for the next two generations? How many people do you kill, and who do you kill?

[Lojik]

I mean...tough times call for tough choices. One big problem with this virus is we just don't know a lot about it. We might get some studies that get published with some factoid that it lives on surfaces for 2 hours, then 8 hours, then 14 days, but again we're in the early stages of gathering knowledge on this disease. Most diseases we've had years to study them in the medical community. But people like to know things, so when a study comes out people in the media often parade it as fact, when we all know we can get biased studies out that say a lot of things. Some people can really abuse their "authority" and present themselves as somehow knowing more than other people.

Example, back in early March someone I know who is a nurse tried to tell me that covid was "nothing to worry about" and that I should really be concerned about measles coming back (measles is a scary as fuck disease though, we just happen to have like a vaccine for it.) "It (covid) can't live outside a human host for more than 2 hours." Right as she was telling me this I couldn't help but think that there's no way she could know this shit, the disease is too new for anyone to be certain of this crap, but her family and friends probably trust all that she says as fact because she's in the medical field.

As far as policy goes, this not knowing is really daunting. We can't even get politicians to agree on things when they know the consequences of the policies they're trying to enact. Most people probably agree that the virus is more contagious and less lethal than the reported case death rates, but the magnitudes of which are still unknown. Even so, what are we up to 45,000 dead (USA) even with all the social distancing, most schools canceled, almost no one flying, large gatherings canceled, people washing hands like crazy and wearing masks. We don't even know how long previous people who have been infected will have sufficient antibodies to fight off a future infection, so maybe herd immunity might not be a great strategy. Maybe this will be a new seasonal flu type thing trying to guess what the right strands are.

Back to Blackbellamy's previous post, it's kind of like that but even those scenarios proposed are only possible scenarios. 100,000 dead, but is that with or without social distancing? Without mass gatherings? The unemployment one, did they attempt to isolate if that was the case with what may possibly only be temporary unemployment? I mean the only 20/20 vision we have is looking back, and we'll probably get some decent control groups (like Brazil) to see how the responses to this virus fared versus others.

There's so many different variables here to work through it's tough, the biggest one is people. Some people look at this virus and think "well if there's no one telling me I can't do things it's probably fine." For example when the social distancing guidelines came out without the orders, many parks were crowded as all hell. But then those same people when mandated to stay home might think "fuck this bullshit you can't tell me what to do, this is America."

Honestly I'm no epidemiologist or any kind of expert, but my opinion on what was going to happen in the states was that 1) the spread wouldn't be quite as explosive as in Italy due to a younger age, people more spread out, not as many smokers, not as touchy feely culture, and we banned large gatherings about the same time as them so earlier in the spread relatively speaking. I do think it will be more prolonged though, due to it reaching places a little slower, minimal social safety net for people losing jobs, people not wanting to go to the hospital because of the exorbitant costs, doctors and nurses getting laid off, people over their heads in debt, and a good chunk of the population just won't want to listen to extended social distancing guidelines or orders.

[BlackBellamy]

Originally Posted by Lojik [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

1)

Not gonna lie you had me in the first half.

88% of intubated patients die. You go in feeling bad and the doctor comes by and says we're going to put you on a ventilator. So you say goodbye to everyone at that point right?

Because you know you have double the chance of scoring a pair of fine rubicite vambraces than making it out of the hospital and remember when you camped the Archon for 12 hours and wound up with six lizardscale belts? Yeah, you gonna die.

Remember it was all about the ventilators. We need them Cuomo cried as he rended his clothes and writhed in the dirt before Jehotrump. But ventilators don't save people, they kill people. If you get a thousand ventilators you're killing 880 people.

Now, if you never gave them a ventilator, would the death rate be higher? 98%? Or lower? We do not know because ventilator is the default. Could we be giving them non-invasive treatments? We don't know because ventilator is the default. For those not familiar, a ventilator helps people breathe by taking over the pumping function from the lungs. So if you have bad pneumonia your lungs are shot to shit and it's actually hard to take the air in cause you're exhausted. So ventilator good, right? But when you have covid, you don't have pneumonia. You have lung damage which prevents you from uptaking the oxygen, but you can breathe on your own. Your lungs aren't tired or exhausted, you just don't have enough surface area inside to absorb the oxygen. But this is all brand new and we needed to settle on a treatment so everyone was like intubate them intubate them.

I read a doctor is claiming you should treat covid patients like high-altitude sickness victims. Oxygen mask with high-concentration oxygen and you lie on your side. That's standard if you fuck up in the Himalayas. Not intubation.

Did we wind up killing thousands and thousands of people by giving them the wrong default treatment? In an emergency you don't have a control group. The best minds of our generation decided this was the way to go. Was it the right way? Some countries didn't lock down. Did they escape the second wave by front-loading the damage or are they prolonging the crisis? Their best minds decided what they thought was best for their countries. Are they right who knows?

First they told us millions were going to die. Then they told us to stay home. It's obvious at this point their initial prediction did not play out in the time frame suggested. However, did this happen because we stayed home or because those guys were just completely wrong. If both factors, how did each contribute to the current status?

It's maddening because everyone is a fucking expert and everyone is very passionate about their view, and meanwhile no one really knows anything for sure. I mean look at this thread; a million (I wish) people offering every point of view of what happened and how to deal with it and the only thing we all agree on is that Earth is flat. I mean not flat completely, it's a like concave disk with a giant ice wall around but anyway my point is that it's just total chaos out there.

Watch what happens afterwards. Everyone will be claiming their particular advice was the best and those other guys were mass-murderers. They're all gonna have tons of proof and lots of pointing fingers.

[Gatorsmash]

Originally Posted by BlackBellamy [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Not gonna lie you had me in the first half.

88% of intubated patients die. You go in feeling bad and the doctor comes by and says we're going to put you on a ventilator. So you say goodbye to everyone at that point right?

Because you know you have double the chance of scoring a pair of fine rubicite vambraces than making it out of the hospital and remember when you camped the Archon for 12 hours and wound up with six lizardscale belts? Yeah, you gonna die.

Remember it was all about the ventilators. We need them Cuomo cried as he rended his clothes and writhed in the dirt before Jehotrump. But ventilators don't save people, they kill people. If you get a thousand ventilators you're killing 880 people.

Now, if you never gave them a ventilator, would the death rate be higher? 98%? Or lower? We do not know because ventilator is the default. Could we be giving them non-invasive treatments? We don't know because ventilator is the default. For those not familiar, a ventilator helps people breathe by taking over the pumping function from the lungs. So if you have bad pneumonia your lungs are shot to shit and it's actually hard to take the air in cause you're exhausted. So ventilator good, right? But when you have covid, you don't have pneumonia. You have lung damage which prevents you from uptaking the oxygen, but you can breathe on your own. Your lungs aren't tired or exhausted, you just don't have enough surface area inside to absorb the oxygen. But this is all brand new and we needed to settle on a treatment so everyone was like intubate them intubate them.

I read a doctor is claiming you should treat covid patients like high-altitude sickness victims. Oxygen mask with high-concentration oxygen and you lie on your side. That's standard if you fuck up in the Himalayas. Not intubation.

Did we wind up killing thousands and thousands of people by giving them the wrong default treatment? In an emergency you don't have a control group. The best minds of our generation decided this was the way to go. Was it the right way? Some countries didn't lock down. Did they escape the second wave by front-loading the damage or are they prolonging the crisis? Their best minds decided what they thought was best for their countries. Are they right who knows?

First they told us millions were going to die. Then they told us to stay home. It's obvious at this point their initial prediction did not play out in the time frame suggested. However, did this happen because we stayed home or because those guys were just completely wrong. If both factors, how did each contribute to the current status?

It's maddening because everyone is a fucking expert and everyone is very passionate about their view, and meanwhile no one really knows anything for sure. I mean look at this thread; a million (I wish) people offering every point of view of what happened and how to deal with it and the only thing we all agree on is that Earth is flat. I mean not flat completely, it's a like concave disk with a giant ice wall around but anyway my point is that it's just total chaos out there.

Watch what happens afterwards. Everyone will be claiming their particular advice was the best and those other guys were mass-murderers. They're all gonna have tons of proof and lots of pointing fingers.

If they dont get a ventilator when its finally required their death rate is 100% dumbass. That's why people were panicking. There is no alternative medicine if your body is physically blocked (from inflammation) from absorbing oxygen.

The extreme isolation measures is because they have no idea how to treat this virus. Why I'm so surprised that people like you can't seem to understand that medical science doesn't know everything I'm not sure

[BlackBellamy]

Originally Posted by Gatorsmash [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

dumbass

No you're a dumbass! ;p

Maybe it wouldn't be finally required if you weren't a victim of a series of ignorant choices by the "experts" and were provided with a different treatment. Unfortunately other treatment choices were cast off during the discussions and you and I and the handsome Persian below you there have no idea if there were even considered or what was said or anything. For all we know a strong-willed personality browbeat people into some solution they wanted because that's what they do at his research hospital.

My point wasn't science knows everything so why can't they just fix this, my point was "...everyone is a fucking expert and everyone is very passionate about their view, and meanwhile no one really knows anything for sure." and my prediction was "Everyone will be claiming their particular advice was the best and those other guys were mass-murderers." which is already kinda happening now.

[Kaveh]

Originally Posted by BlackBellamy [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Not gonna lie you had me in the first half.

88% of intubated patients die. You go in feeling bad and the doctor comes by and says we're going to put you on a ventilator. So you say goodbye to everyone at that point right?

Because you know you have double the chance of scoring a pair of fine rubicite vambraces than making it out of the hospital and remember when you camped the Archon for 12 hours and wound up with six lizardscale belts? Yeah, you gonna die.

Remember it was all about the ventilators. We need them Cuomo cried as he rended his clothes and writhed in the dirt before Jehotrump. But ventilators don't save people, they kill people. If you get a thousand ventilators you're killing 880 people.

Now, if you never gave them a ventilator, would the death rate be higher? 98%? Or lower? We do not know because ventilator is the default. Could we be giving them non-invasive treatments? We don't know because ventilator is the default. For those not familiar, a ventilator helps people breathe by taking over the pumping function from the lungs. So if you have bad pneumonia your lungs are shot to shit and it's actually hard to take the air in cause you're exhausted. So ventilator good, right? But when you have covid, you don't have pneumonia. You have lung damage which prevents you from uptaking the oxygen, but you can breathe on your own. Your lungs aren't tired or exhausted, you just don't have enough surface area inside to absorb the oxygen. But this is all brand new and we needed to settle on a treatment so everyone was like intubate them intubate them.

I read a doctor is claiming you should treat covid patients like high-altitude sickness victims. Oxygen mask with high-concentration oxygen and you lie on your side. That's standard if you fuck up in the Himalayas. Not intubation.

Did we wind up killing thousands and thousands of people by giving them the wrong default treatment? In an emergency you don't have a control group. The best minds of our generation decided this was the way to go. Was it the right way? Some countries didn't lock down. Did they escape the second wave by front-loading the damage or are they prolonging the crisis? Their best minds decided what they thought was best for their countries. Are they right who knows?

First they told us millions were going to die. Then they told us to stay home. It's obvious at this point their initial prediction did not play out in the time frame suggested. However, did this happen because we stayed home or because those guys were just completely wrong. If both factors, how did each contribute to the current status?

It's maddening because everyone is a fucking expert and everyone is very passionate about their view, and meanwhile no one really knows anything for sure. I mean look at this thread; a million (I wish) people offering every point of view of what happened and how to deal with it and the only thing we all agree on is that Earth is flat. I mean not flat completely, it's a like concave disk with a giant ice wall around but anyway my point is that it's just total chaos out there.

Watch what happens afterwards. Everyone will be claiming their particular advice was the best and those other guys were mass-murderers. They're all gonna have tons of proof and lots of pointing fingers.

Ventilators are a medical necessity when a person is in respiratory failure. It is correct to say that a lot of people die once they get to the point of needing ventilation, but barring intubation, your only option is BIPAP/CPAP, and that’s a hopeful solution because those options are less invasive and less effective (they are a step down from mechanical ventilation and generally aren’t indicated when you’re at the point of needing to be intubated, IE less invasive measures have already failed)

[solleks]

U guys are retarded