Enchanter charm isn't classic, we all know this

[Vizax_Xaziv]

Originally Posted by Frostback [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think that's the point you're missing, enchanters are classicly the highest DPS class.


https://web.archive.org/web/20000621...enc_ruri.shtml

People keep posting that link in defense of Chanters. This is the first sentence under the Charming section of that guide:


"Charm, Beguile, etc.. - Will most likely not be used in excess, but will come in handy."

He continues, under the "Soloing as an Enchanter" section of the guide:

"First thing is to make a pet. I highly suggest against using Charm to solo. Although Charming may get more monsters killed, it's quite risky, and you never know when that faithful Mesmerise spell may fizzle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]"

[Dreenk317]

The aoe nerf wa not because of bards. Bards were a factor yes. But the overwhelming reason that aoe got nerfed was the chardok aoe groups. They would literally pull the ENTIRE zone. Not just most of it, or all the camps you want. But every mob. Then they would use aoe stuns and nukes to lock and burn them down. Charging people upwards of 3kpp per pull to sit in the exp group.

It made chardok unplayable, completely. I dont know of any bard that makes an ENTIRE zone unplayable, let alone one that has some really good drops and quest drops for multiple class epics.

I also dont know a single enchanter that can do this. Equating the current state of enchanter charm, broken or not, to something as massive as what lead up to the aoe nerf is just silly. I guarantee if they nerf chanters, a new meta for a dif class will just take its place, and you will be crying about them soon enough.

[Frostback]

Originally Posted by Vizax_Xaziv [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

People keep posting that in defense of Chanters. This is the first sentence under the Charming section of that guide:


"Charm, Beguile, etc.. - Will most likely not be used in excess"

Because of technological limitations which are not present now.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Dreenk317 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The aoe nerf wa not because of bards. Bards were a factor yes. But the overwhelming reason that aoe got nerfed was the chardok aoe groups. They would literally pull the ENTIRE zone. Not just most of it, or all the camps you want. But every mob. Then they would use aoe stuns and nukes to lock and burn them down. Charging people upwards of 3kpp per pull to sit in the exp group.

It made chardok unplayable, completely. I dont know of any bard that makes an ENTIRE zone unplayable, let alone one that has some really good drops and quest drops for multiple class epics.

I also dont know a single enchanter that can do this. Equating the current state of enchanter charm, broken or not, to something as massive as what lead up to the aoe nerf is just silly. I guarantee if they nerf chanters, a new meta for a dif class will just take its place, and you will be crying about them soon enough.

I made an analogy: analogies don't line up on every point exactly. If they did they'd be the same case, not analogies [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As I freely admitted, the CS demands were a major factor in the AoE nerf (and of course that isn't the case with Enchanters). While I disagree with you that Chardok was the problem (because Chardok didn't result in petitions: the AoE crowd just owned the zone and everyone happily paid them, whereas OT resulted in lots of petitions) ... it really doesn't matter which zone was "to blame".

The point is, P99 had a faithful recreation of EQ mechanics. There was not a single thing you could point to and say "that's not classic" about how the Bard songs worked, or anything else. But, The Overthere (and Chardok) were both very clearly not classic ... just as Enchanters aren't. (And also, Bards back then used the exact same "our mechanics are perfectly classic" argument used by Enchanters in this thread.)

Since Enchanters aren't causing CS headaches, that leaves us with only two options. The lame one: petition Enchanters a lot until the staff gets tired of the petitions [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] ... or the reasonable one, which is to say "Hey Nilbog, we want classic EQ, and as far as all of us remember, Enchanters weren't even in the top five, let alone the best DPS in the game!"

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Some piece of the "secret sauce" of classic EQ is still missing here, and as players who've gotten to enjoy R&N's amazing decade of emulator work, I feel we all have a duty to support them however we can to make this place as classic as possible ... and I see making some noise to get them to "see the forest" as part of that.

[bubur]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As players enjoying R&N's amazing emulator work, we all have a duty to help them, and that means supporting a more classic P99.

it's exactly this reason that i resist a custom enc charm nerf with no proposed definition.

i hope you can understand this. if you can come up with a reasonable solution that would make me confident the game would be more like it was in 1999, then i'd be more likely to consider supporting it. as of now, i don't really see the practical nerf, that is, the mechanical change in charm, that you're suggesting "all of us" are asking for

i for one, am not. this is how it is on every tlp, this is how its been on p99 since the beginning. this is how it could have been on live save for some *unknown factors*

if we can figure out what those are, i'm onboard man, but this demanding change without defining it is a little outrageous

[loramin]

Originally Posted by bubur [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

it's exactly this reason that i resist a custom enc charm nerf with no proposed definition.

i hope you can understand this. if you can come up with a reasonable solution that would make me confident the game would be more like it was in 1999, then i'd be more likely to consider supporting it. as of now, i don't really see the practical nerf, that is, the mechanical change in charm, that you're suggesting "all of us" are asking for

i for one, am not. this is how it is on every tlp, this is how its been on p99 since the beginning. this is how it could have been on live save for some *unknown factors*

if we can figure out what those are, i'm onboard man, but this demanding change without defining it is a little outrageous

I feel like you're trying to engage with/understand me (which I greatly respect, as it's too rare here) ... but also we're missing each other. I am not saying "I'VE FOUND THE SOLUTION!!!"

(If I did, that'd be awesome, and I'd be posting evidence for it instead of talking here [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.])

I'm just saying "I SEE AN (UNCLASSIC) PROBLEM!" It's like if a house is on fire: just because I'm not a firefighter and I can't stop it, that doesn't mean I shouldn't call the people who can, or that I should listen to the guy next to me (who hates his neighbor) and says "houses are totally supposed to do that, don't call anyone" ...

[bubur]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I feel like you're trying to engage with/understand me (which I greatly respect, as it's too rare here) ... but also we're missing each other. I am not saying "I'VE FOUND THE SOLUTION!!!" If I did, that'd be awesome, and I'd be posting evidence for it instead of talking here.

I'm just saying "I SEE AN (UNCLASSIC) PROBLEM!" Lots of people are arguing with me and "no problem here" ... when I think everyone without a horse in the race can clearly see that "shit ain't classic."

there aint nothing we cant solve together baby

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zh8YAU9TPU

[Frostback]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

"just as OT and Chardok weren't classic, even though every last mechanic seemed like it was ... in that exact same way Enchanters aren't"

I don't think enchanters are disrupting the game as much as AOE in chardok was.

we all have a duty to help them, and that means supporting a more classic P99.

That doesn't mean replicate exactly what happened in 1999. When I play p1999, I feel like i'm still playing old school eq.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by bubur [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

there aint nothing we cant solve together baby

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zh8YAU9TPU

Great: I can never unsee that. Now I have to go scrub my eyes/ears out and try to listen to some European power metal or something [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Frostback [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't think enchanters are disrupting the game as much as AOE in chardok was.

Yeah again I was making an analogy. The part that's similar between the AoE nerf and Enchanters is that in both cases the mechanics were completely correct ... but the game wasn't classic.

But again, just because I compare two things in some way, it does not mean I'm saying they are the same in every other way. For instance, I'm very much not trying to say Enchanters are as disruptive ... in fact I said the exact opposite:

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Since Enchanters aren't causing CS headaches ...

Originally Posted by Frostback [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That doesn't mean replicate exactly what happened in 1999. When I play p1999, I feel like i'm still playing old school eq.

This is not staff-bashing [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] R&N have done an incredible, amazing job of re-creating classic EverQuest, and I truly appreciate what they've done.

But if you read what they write (and both rarely post much anymore), I think one thing is clear: R&N feel more passionately about re-creating classic EverQuest than just about anyone on the planet. How better can we thank such people than by helping them to make their 98.5% classic server 98.7% classic? [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]