Enchanter charm isn't classic, we all know this

[Vizax_Xaziv]

Originally Posted by Cuktus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Wholly hell am I doing this wrong. Please tell me how to solo 100 mobs every 10min on a chanter please. I am clearly doing this wrong.

Edit: a word

Not individually but collectively. You'll see what I mean a month or two from now when EVERY high value camp on Green/Teal is being solod by a level 50 Enchanters!

[Vizax_Xaziv]

Originally Posted by Tecmos Deception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Well I like to think that I try to be reasonable even about issues close to my heart, lol. Though like I've mentioned lately, I'm not playing a chanter any more and have no plans to!

That aside, I don't think I've argued that players were dumb (unless maybe tongue in cheeck while meaning that they just hadn't had enough playtime to figure it all out yet), nor that everyone was charming on live.

Regarding the second half of your post though, just a day or two ago I challenged the people claiming that charm couldn't have worked this well on live to play a chanter on blue like it would have been in classic on p99 and see if charm still feels like it trivializes content and is easy to do.

I would LOVE to see someone playing with randomized 1-2/hr link deaths, no GCD clicky, no -mr gear, no malaise on pet, who ocassionally chain stuns NPCs and nukes, also try to charm one of these DPS monstrosities everyone keeps saying chanters can control here but couldn't on live.

I know what's going to happen.

But you dont NEED any of that. Just charm yourself a high-level greencon (or min level bluecon) and you're all set. Youll still greatly out-DPS any actual player and Charm will last it's full duration virtually every time with only Tash.

[Tecmos Deception]

Originally Posted by Vizax_Xaziv [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But you dont NEED any of that. Just charm yourself a high-level greencon (or min level bluecon) and you're all set. Youll still greatly out-DPS any actual player and Charm will last it's full duration virtually every time with only Tash.

A green or minimum blue won't out-dps DPS classes. Charm won't last full duration hardly ever with just tash. I have admitted being very open to low-level mobs charming too easily (pending data that none of the people wanting to see charm nerfed ever go actually looking for).

And you ignored half my post. It's not about using all of today's ironed-out tactics and pointing to how well it works. It's about using CLASSIC'S idea of the "right" way to play while also trying to maintain a pet. That's when you'll see all the stuff I'm saying about why chanters didn't often charm in groups even though the mechanics were present to allow it.

[d-tron]

Here's a cool thread from June 2001 on caster's realm about enchanters discussing charm tactics:

https://web.archive.org/web/20010630...c&f=9&t=004889

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Tecmos Deception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Though like I've mentioned lately, I'm not playing a chanter any more and have no plans to!

Heh, I actually didn't know that, but on Green/Teal I'm not playing a Shaman either, so I feel you.

Originally Posted by Tecmos Deception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That aside, I don't think I've argued that players were dumb (unless maybe tongue in cheeck while meaning that they just hadn't had enough playtime to figure it all out yet),

Yeah, I don't think anyone was truly arguing that, but both sides need to sum up arguments and "players were dumb" was a quick summation. I understood that you (and others) really meant "players were ignorant of specific key details that they couldn't have reasonably figured out on their own in the first three years of play" ... but we both say "players were dumb" because it's shorter [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Originally Posted by Tecmos Deception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I never figured out HS south until they showed me. I spent hundreds of hours soloing with Tecmos (blue), Tecmos (red), and Noman, but was still improving on my methods in my final streams I did with Noman after 6 years of nonstop chanting, 95% solo, on p99. I had to learn lev trick, corpsing keys, gnoming through doors, -mr gear for pets, even basic spell gem setup, I had to learn the best way to do all those things from other people. I never figured those things out all on my own. I'm not ever going to claim I'm the best chanter or the best player, but I like to think I'm pretty damn good when I want to be. And in 6 years I never pieced together even 1/4 of the stuff I would have needed to make the videos like I did in HS south/east, seb, etc. Is it a stretch to think that there weren't dozens of chanters who pieced this all together in only 3 years of classic era on live?

I love and appreciate all this specific evidence for your argument, and while specifics are great, can I abstract things instead?

I feel like I'm saying "Enchanters were a 1 in DPS on live, and they're a 10 here; 1 != 10, P99 != 100% classic yet". And I feel like what you just said was "it's hard to go from a 7 to a 10 as an Enchanter" ... which I 100% agree with.

But what I'm more focused on isn't that live was 1 and pro-Chanters like you on Blue are 10s ... I'm more talking about "why wasn't your average Enchanter on live a 7?" All the stuff you talked about explains why Enchanters on live weren't 10s, but it doesn't explain why they were 1s.

Originally Posted by Tecmos Deception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I would LOVE to see someone playing with randomized 1-2/hr link deaths, no GCD clicky, no -mr gear, no malaise on pet, who ocassionally chain stuns NPCs and nukes, also try to charm one of these DPS monstrosities everyone keeps saying chanters can control here but couldn't on live.

I know what's going to happen.

I'm not an Enchanter player, but first off, not every player had randomized 1-2 hour link deaths.

Certainly they didn't have GCD clickies, -MR gear, and (when soloing) a pocket Shaman/Mage for debuffing ... but again, that can only explain why we're 10s, and live was a 7 or maybe 6. But live was a 1! 1 doesn't even equal 6.

Something ain't classic here.

[Tecmos Deception]

Like I said Lor. I'd love to see someone take the widely-disseminated guides and general "it is known, khaleesi" type of knowledge you can find scattered around casters realm and zam forums and stuff, and play a chanter on p99 like that while also trying to maintain a charm.

If they can do that and show me the video of them playing like a classic chanter was told to by everything they could find anywhere while still ripping shit up with a monster charmed pet, I'll walk back all my defense of charm being similar here to on live.

I'm confident I can't play like a classic chanter, even if you permit a perfect internet connection, while charming a group's worth of DPS like people are yelling about, let alone while soloing a high end named camp.

And again, this is still looking past a lot of issues that I believe were roadblocks: camp availability in the first place for classic era chanters to ever get much time trying to solo something like freeti, the number of chanters who reached max level before the next xpac brought new content being far lower than on here (especially on blue during out 5-year kunark, haha), etc.



Maybe I'll motivate to death loop Noman to 50 and strip him of clickies and some of his gear and go try to solo something on blue with classic-era strategies and put the video up. I'm like 50% sure just no GCD clicky by itself will make it difficult enough to not be a reasonable use of time.

Yuck. It'll take me some effort to get motivated for that though cause I'll need to reorganize his spell book besides just binding next to a guard at the nfp/wfp zoneline for a few hours. Lol.

[cd288]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The evidence is that IT'S NOT LIKE 1999!!! That's all the evidence we need. AGAIN, with Bards every last piece of existing evidence said "Bards can AoE 100 mobs and take all of OT".

But the even more important evidence was "BARDS DIDN'T DO THAT IN 1999!" AoEing every mob in OT was unclassic, and that was all Nilbog needed to go looking for the mechanic he was missing.

The exact same thing is true here. We have mountains of evidence, all correct and arguing Enchanters should be the most powerful DPS class in EverQuest. And then we have even more important evidence that says they weren't even in the top five on any server (out of the many, each with thousands of players, that existed back then). 1 + 1 =2, and shit's not classic.

And the only way you can argue that it should be that way is if you think every Enchanter back then was too stupid to try using their spells. That's not an honest argument, that's a "please don't classically nerf my class because it's my class" argument.

And there could be a variety of different reasons why the atmosphere is not like it was in 1999 and Enchanters weren't as popular. It could be that people didn't know as much about Charm killing strategies. It could be that people didn't know how OP Enchanters could be (which is probably part of it, since Enchanters did become very popular in the Classic era, just not right away). It could be that the mechanics are indeed different. If it's the latter, then you need to find evidence for it because the arbitrary standard you're trying to apply to change things isn't sufficient to get something changed. Get some actual evidence about the mechanics themselves rather than your arbitrary "evidence" that could actually have multiple different reasons for why it was the way you allege it was, and then you can post about it and see how the discussion goes/if things get changed on P99.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Tecmos Deception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Like I said Lor. I'd love to see someone take the widely-disseminated guides and general "it is known, khaleesi" type of knowledge you can find scattered around casters realm and zam forums and stuff, and play a chanter on p99 like that while also trying to maintain a charm.

If they can do that and show me the video of them playing like a classic chanter was told to by everything they could find anywhere while still ripping shit up with a monster charmed pet, I'll walk back all my defense of charm being similar here to on live.

So let's try taking Enchanters out of the picture, for a moment, and let's talk about ... Druid charming!

I charmed on my Druid here, just about exclusively until 45. I did twink him out with a Goblin ring at some point, but I also charmed for a level or two without it first. I never used -MR gear or a GCD clickie (well, I got when he was 60 but that's irrelevant).

I absolutely understand what a huge difference that ring makes. But even so, without it, and without -MR gear or an insta-click item, I got a level or two, and it was still significantly faster than root/rotting.

Now look, I get that message boards were a double-edged sword: they shared info, but they also encouraged a certain "herd mentality". This lead to "wisdom" being passed on to newer players, and some very small percentage of the time that "wisdom" may have missed a relevant detail and been wrong.

Case in point: every Shaman (on the forums) knew to Cann-dance. But none knew to use a Shrunken Goblin Ring to spam click Cann once you got Torpor. Relatively few shaman even got to 60 (in classic), only a few of them had Torpor, and relatively few players overall even understood global cooldown resets.

-MR gear, goblin ring, GCD resets ... all of that is equivalent (in the GCD case, directly) to Shaman Cann-dancing when they should have been GCD reset-ing.

But charming a mob, having it fight another mob, and then casting invis on yourself to break it? Without any other item or mechanic, that's a valuable strategy (again, faster than root/rotting, the established approach for Druids). It's widely practiced here, but it wasn't on live.

I can't prove with evidence that it's absolutely, certainly, a sign of a missing mechanic here. And I couldn't have proven it with Bards AoEing in OT: I'm no AoE expert, and every Bard defender said "it's a classic mechanic, people just didn't realize they couldn't do it on live, we're smarter here".

But does the incredibly different amount of even base-level, no tricks charm fighting here vs. live ... does it truly "smell" like just ignorance, and not a sign of any other hard-to-pin-down mechanic being off, which makes the technique more effective here than it was on live?

[jacob54311]

Originally Posted by cd288 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It could be that the mechanics are indeed different. If it's the latter, then you need to find evidence for it because the arbitrary standard you're trying to apply to change things isn't sufficient to get something changed.

I think this is the key. P99 has left a lot of things in that were changed later that most people agreed were for the better, like the unjustified hybrid XP penalty. Yes, they have done some things that weren't quite classic for a variety of reasons, but for the most part keeping it classic has been their guide.

[Tecmos Deception]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But does the incredibly different amount of even base-level charm fighting here vs. live truly, honestly, "smell" like just ignorance, and not possibly the sign of any other hard-to-pin-down mechanic (like charm resists) being off?

Not to me.

But I can't really answer what it smells like with a blank slate because I mained a chanter on live who spent most of his time charm soloing to level, and when in groups also charmed (but at a reduced clip during classic era compared to luclin and pop). Lol.