Let's talk CLASS BALANCE

[Kika Maslyaka]

one thing I agree on for sure, is that during classic timeline, Druid is a jack of HALF-trades, rather than jack of ALL trades [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It wasn't until time of PoP, when druids truly could substitute for cleric as a 3/4 healer, or could contribute some decent (not good as true dps classes, but still decent) DPS to the group

[Nivar Quartz]

Originally Posted by Hamahakki [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Zuranthium is clearly an old school EQ player with some good ideas but this thread misses the point.

The intent of Project 1999 is to recreate EQ as it was during the first couple of years following its launch. This means replicating the original game as closely as possible, not creating some custom content which is different but attempts to recapture the "spirit" or "feeling" of the original game.

Adding or removing class abilities, globally tuning mob strength or cast times, and increasing or reducing the damage and healing capabilities of classes are all off the table. Whether or not they would be an improvement is immaterial.

Nerfing Mag pets didnt help this objective.

[Taryth]

Originally Posted by ojamajoe [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm not sure that the original designers were interested in class balance, in the way people usually think of it. They seem to have instead tried to create a variety of possible experiences, many appealing to very different player types and personalities.

They also had a (much-maligned) "vision", which called for (among other things) rarity for certain race/class combinations; and it appears they utilized the game mechanics to attempt to make that happen.

Although balanced classes are the expectation on entering a modern MMO, Everquest was my first MMORPG and I had no such expectations when I started playing it.

I miss the RPG part...

This man speaks great truth!

Thank the Lawd this isn't EQ2, which attempted (well, still does) to endlessly balance all the classes . . .all the way into a pulpy mess of homogeneous classes.

[Zuranthium]

Once again, that's not what I am attempting to do. Please read carefully.

[Spud]

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Again, I will say: Class balance, as well as a multitude of other game features, changed many times during the Classic era. This very server has constantly made specific decisions as to how it wants things to be. This very server is not an exact replica of Everquest at ANY point in its history. This server is trying to replicate an original EQ experience in the most fair and effective ways possible. When we first played EQ, a lot of the flaws didn't really matter because the game itself was so enrapturing. Now that we no longer have the "ignorance is bliss" perception towards the game, steps should be taken to make it the best game it can possibly be with regards to recapturing the ESSENCE of what original EQ was.

Not true!

This server is ALL about replicating EQ as closely as possible through Velious, down to each nerf and patch.

Now... its not a 100% replica, perfect is not possible, there are certain limitations due to the eqemu coding. We're not forced to stare at our spell book while meding, but otherwise the dev team follows the EverQuest's patch history as close as possible.

Also I will echo what others have said say that the unbalanced nature of the classes makes this game interesting, it adds depth to the gameplay and makes specialized classes fun to play etc.

Can it be frustrating at times to be the Ranger who gets made fun of constantly in /ooc and is left out of groups? Sure but when you get to level 60 it makes the accomplishment that much more rewarding.

On live I played a cleric and could easily get in a group within minutes of logging on. But I was always jealous of the utility of the druids. I wanted DoTs, i wanted SoW, i wanted INVIS, i wanted to teleport, track and the ability to solo!!

So when p1999 came around I rolled a Druid. Now I can't complain when I have trouble finding groups when at the same time I can solo stuff naked.

BTW I mained healed a Karnors group for hours today at level 53. Once we get Superior Heal we are at least a viable backup option for MH if there is no cleric around.

[Zuranthium]

Originally Posted by Spud [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Not true!

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

How is it not true? Class balance factually changed throughout classic EQ.

Originally Posted by Spud [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Also I will echo what others have said say that the unbalanced nature of the classes makes this game interesting, it adds depth to the gameplay and makes specialized classes fun to play etc. Can it be frustrating at times to be the Ranger who gets made fun of constantly in /ooc and is left out of groups? Sure but when you get to level 60 it makes the accomplishment that much more rewarding.

And what about the people who want to play those classes and not feel like they are crap? If you want to make the game harder for yourself you can specifically avoid the less easy zones as you adventure and try to level.

Adds depth to the gameplay? I really can't agree with that at all. Adding depth to the gameplay would be something that makes players interact more or something that makes the game require more skill. Playing a shitty class doesn't make the game require more skill, it just means you won't actually be able to go adventure and fight where/when you want to as a result of being undesirable for groups.

Originally Posted by Spud [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

BTW I mained healed a Karnors group for hours today at level 53. Once we get Superior Heal we are at least a viable backup option for MH if there is no cleric around.

I'm sorry but Karnor's isn't that demanding. Wait until you level up more and get into the hard zones. The content becomes so difficult that you MUST have a Cleric and you MUST have a buffed up melee (and only a Warrior or Monk suffices because, if "the timeline" is being followed, then Paladin's/SK's can't tank at that level and won't be able to until well into Velious). Often you MUST have a crowd controller as well.

After you've gotten up there with the Kunark content and are getting discouraged about just how little you're able to do, it only gets worse with Velious. The Holy Trinity of Warrior-Cleric-Enchanter becomes even MORE of a requirement there, as the monsters' resist rates and stats reach even higher heights of ridiculousness.

[Harputluyuzz]

Thanks for share

[Dynaguy]

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The extra mana regen is far more than 3 per tick. LOL!!! Only at the lower levels of cannibalize and healing efficiency is a Shaman going to get that little of a benefit from the skill. At the higher levels, with Chloroblast and being Alt specialized, it certainly is worthwhile to constantly canni inbetween med ticks and then start Chloroblasting yourself between med ticks when you get low on health. Cannibalize III is a 1.85 health-to-mana rate. Chloroblast is something like a 2.85 health-to-mana rate. You of course have Torpor (Regrowth in this case, the lower-level version that is not as powerful, since I'm not even talking about a Level 60 Shaman where Cannibalize IV and Torpor make things even MORE eficient) and natural health regen on top of that.

All in all, you can Cannibalize 8 times for every single cast of Chloroblast you need to do. Which means over the course of 9 ticks, you are gaining about 160 extra mana when also subtracting the little bit you need to expend on casting Regrowth every 20 minutes. The natural mana regen a caster has at this level is 21 per tick. With the Cannibalize system going, the Shaman is gaining an extra 17 mana per tick - This is an 80% increase in mana regen a Shaman has over another caster working off of natural regen. That is a freaking HUGE difference.

Chloroblast is not in the game. Don't know when it will be. but atm superior healing is our best heal, with an efficiency of 2.3. Also, canni 3 takes 100 hp, wiki is incorrect, so it's less efficient than you think. And our Canni 4 is actually less efficient than 3. So things aren't as awesome as you make them out to be. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Ofcourse with torpor, this is all moot anyway. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Seems to me you have more of a beef with shamans being very powerful, than actually wanting druids to be useful? Or why the explicit comparison to shamans? You can run this comparison with a bunch of other classes as well, and the conclusion would be the same.

[Nagash]

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm sorry but Karnor's isn't that demanding. Wait until you level up more and get into the hard zones. The content becomes so difficult that you MUST have a Cleric and you MUST have a buffed up melee (and only a Warrior or Monk suffices because, if "the timeline" is being followed, then Paladin's/SK's can't tank at that level and won't be able to until well into Velious). Often you MUST have a crowd controller as well.

After you've gotten up there with the Kunark content and are getting discouraged about just how little you're able to do, it only gets worse with Velious. The Holy Trinity of Warrior-Cleric-Enchanter becomes even MORE of a requirement there, as the monsters' resist rates and stats reach even higher heights of ridiculousness.

On Live, I main healed as a shaman in Sebilis or Chardok (during Kunark era) or places like Kael during Velious and that was with no outside healing help and no one else but me to slow our targets. Some friends have done it with a druid or even with a paladin (yes my good lad, a paladin, now how's that for a roxorz pally?). This doesn't mean you don't have to tweak your group composition or strategy but it is most definitely doable. Note that I speak of tweak, as in small adjustments, not having to stick to a rigid group composition without which it would be impossible. EQ has been build around the concept of group and around the concept of having a lot of possibilities to make an efficient group.
I already highlighted that in another post of yours but you chose to ignore it. Learn to play before QQing.

At some point, the holy trinity became prevalent as it was the most effective way of doing things (group wise) but it was in no way mandatory, nor was it the only workable group backbone. I never had a problem finding a group, nor did any of my friends and none of us was a "server superstar" whose renown alone would have granted them a slot in a group. So yes, you will find some morons who think that nothing can be done without the holy trinity but you have the choice to ignore these dickheads and to give your attention to the rest of the population of the server. If it goes the way it was on Live at the time, the non-stupid population will more than outweight (in numbers) the others. It is a matter of choice, YOUR choice.

And if you want something so different, as I also highlighted in your other post, you have plenty of options as it is blatant that this server is not what you are after:
- go on another server
- make another server (you might be very successful and have a lot of people coming on it, who knows [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.])
- go to Live (when they re-open huhu) and play with no maps or any outside help

As already been very rightfully said by someone else, I will not bother quoting all your other points and refute them as it is obvious that you haven't made any research prior to posting. That would be easy but way too time consumming seeing how you can write two or three incoherent posts in the time I type one answer.

[Grizzled]

This game was designed for each class to have a role. It was not designed like WoW to hodge podge people together and be able to do anything. The class imbalance is there for a reason. Take SK PAL and WAR. If the warrior coiuld get snap agro like sk or pally, then there would be no need for either of the 2 when all tanks would be warriors who can raid tank and never lose agro in a group. The same goes the other direction. If sk and pally's could take a beating like a warrior from a raid mob, there would be no need for warriiors at all. If we balance the classes, then we now have WoW. Why use a Warrior when a druid(whatever the class was called) in bear form can tank just as good.

Class balanceing is what killed EQ. when shamans and druid got CH and minor rezzes. Clerics were no longer really necissary for groups, and they were a class that had to group. when they balanced the classes on live for CLR DRU SHM, the soloing classes got more powerfull. and non soloing classes weaker. Just my 2cp but wtf do i know[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]