Request for a different policy on (game-changing) specific item camps

[YendorLootmonkey]

Originally Posted by Turtles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Personally, I don't think a rule change would fix anything. There's always a way around. But I agree that it's a shitty situation and people shouldn't be dicks. Share. Reward someone who has been waiting for 10 hours rather than hooking up your guildie that logged in 15 minutes ago.

The guildie is gonna be there when it comes time to help camp stuff for your epics. Random player waiting there for ten hours is most likely not. So who do you hook up with the camp?

Two different opposing mindsets.

But again, its already been pointed out that this no longer happens at the camp in question. Meanwhile, are solo casters still storing multiple FBSS's on corpses at frenzy camp? :P

[Turtles]

Originally Posted by YendorLootmonkey [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The guildie is gonna be there when it comes time to help camp stuff for your epics. Random player waiting there for ten hours is most likely not. So who do you hook up with the camp?

Exactly.

Which is why I say "don't be a dick." It's greed. Getting the item(s) isn't enough. Now you're worrying about leveraging the camp into future aid. The 10% -- or worse -- chance that this particular guildie helps you in the future based solely upon your providing them with the camp in question is worth more to you than doing a solid for the guy that's been patiently waiting in line for 10 hours.

And the 'you' is a generalized you, I'm not referring to you specifically Yend. Just saying.

The ideal solution, from a non-dick that nonetheless wants to help his guild progress, would be to let someone hop into line, but not allow them to take over the camp. In other words, there are 5 members of ABC guild at the camp. A 6th guy shows up, not in ABC guild. That guy can sit around, and after the 5 ABC guys get their items, the 6th guy gets the next. But he doesn't get to choose who to hand the camp to afterward. It goes back to ABC. That way, everyone with the patience to wait their turn wins. Only lazy guildies that try to piggy back off of their friends without even waiting in an artificially short line lose.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Originally Posted by Turtles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Exactly.

Which is why I say "don't be a dick." It's greed. Getting the item(s) isn't enough. Now you're worrying about leveraging the camp into future aid. The 10% -- or worse -- chance that this particular guildie helps you in the future based solely upon your providing them with the camp in question is worth more to you than doing a solid for the guy that's been patiently waiting in line for 10 hours.

Or, that guildmate has helped you on a camp or on a raid in the past, and you are compelled to hook him up first, before the Guy You Have Never Seen Before (tm).

That is why people form guilds. To achieve what they can't on their own. And to create a strong bond within the guild, the expectation is that you help each other achieve goals... whether that be levels, equipping your character, downing a high-value mob, whatever.

It is a completely different mindset than "oh, that guy I've never seen before and I have no obligation to help wants the camp over someone that I have obligation to help... F my guildmate, he's on his own. Here you go, random dude!"

It's something the rest of us learned the first time around in Live, and I think some people forgot after playing WoW for too long.

Again, it's not about being a dick or screwing someone over. That just happens to be a side effect to the "for the guild" mentality.

[Turtles]

I've literally never played any MMORPG other than EverQuest, so I don't know a thing about the WoW comparisons. But back on live, guilds wouldn't waste this kind of time on trivial shit, partly because the game wasn't explored well enough for a guild to determine what trivial shit was/wasn't worth the time until it was too late. It also just wasn't good form.

And if you want to hook someone up that has helped you out in the past, then let him hop right into the camp. All he has to do is wait behind the guy that has been waiting there for the entire guild queue to empty first. If he's too much of a prick to wait one extra drop for a camp he didn't have to go through the trouble of earning, he doesn't deserve it. And if you owe him so drastically that you want to get it for him even despite his impatience, just give him your spot. And you can hop in line behind the guy that's been waiting for 10 hours. That way, you're *actually* doing your guildie a favor, instead of just dicking over a non-guildie for his sake, as if that's some sacrifice on your part.

[Kika Maslyaka]

yeah exactly, this goes right back to the "ticket line" example given before.
Just because you standing in front of me, doesn't mean you can keep bringing in your family and friends, when it was clearly said that's its one ticket per person.

[YendorLootmonkey]

These are guilds competing against other guilds. It is a competition for them. You are collateral damage in their competition. They don't intend to deny you the camp or the items on purpose. They are focused on one thing only... gearing up and becoming more capable than their competing guilds.

It has nothing to do with being a dick or whatever you want to call it, although I completely understand how you can feel that way, because you do not have the same mindset that they do.

They are not obligated to the casual player. You're talking about guilds that train and leapfrog each other in the spirit of "competition". This is how it has been since the start of Everquest and when the first uberguild formed on your Live server. There should be no surprises in how things work 11 years later.

Is it greedy? To the casual player, yes. To them, it's just part of the game. Put in time/effort, result in shiny trinket, go to next camp/raid, repeat.

You and them are not playing the same game. It might be called Everquest to both of you, but it's like you're playing flag football against a team that's tackling. You're the person telling the other player in Street Fighter to stop locking you down with Ryu's constant stream of fireballs, when all they want to do is win, while you're trying to set up some arbitrary rules for yourself to even the playing field.

Douchebaggery or not, it's how they chose to play the game. Not one single one of us has the right to tell another how one should play the game, or how one should derive enjoyment out of the game. It just doesn't work that way, and it never has. So you can choose to accept it and wait for a guild locking down a camp to slip up, join a guild yourself that can lock down the camp, spend the time farming stuff so you can buy it (you know, like every melee ever had to buy FBSS from solo casters locking down Frenzy), or sit here and butt heads and get all frustrated over trying to change an entire mindset of like 50% of the server.

[Kika Maslyaka]

ah, but that's what RULES are for.
If there would be no rules at all, then training and KS would be raging all over, since there would be no fear of any punishment.
The argument about guilds and collateral damage is just like argument about Gangs: the Westside Gang is at war with Eastside Gang, and they shot each other whenever they encounter each other. And yes, average citizens do become collateral damage as result of this shootouts, regardless the fact that neither Gang was targeting them specifically - you just happened to be in the line of fire.

But this is also why CIVILIZED societies have formed such institutions as LAW and Law Enforcement, that keeps the Gangs in check.

To translate to EQ terms- these is what we have rules for that enforced by the GMs.

So where, guilds don't give a crap about casual players, we, casual players, don't give a crap about guild's competition - take it elsewhere :P You can compete all you want, as long as it doesn't hurt people around you.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Originally Posted by Kika Maslyaka [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

To translate to EQ terms- these is what we have rules for that enforced by the GMs.

Exactly. I agree with you. Play by the rules.

This is the current rule:

"7. We do not have a rule for how a camp will be handed off to another player. It is recommended the player interested in obtaining a camp work that out with who is on the camp already.
*Example* Player a is on jboots, player b comes and sits and just waits. If player a wants to hand off to his friend rather than player b, he has that right. If player a wants to hold a list and give to the next player on that list, that is also his right. GMs will not moderate that unless player b can prove he was deceived by player a with how the camp would be handed off. "

You want the rules changed because they aren't convenient for you. You want to circumvent the time/effort that someone else spent waiting for and securing/holding that camp for their friends. You, in effect, want a rule change so that you can "cut in line" to get your shiny trinkets because the current rules don't allow you to do that. Greedy who?

See? It's all a matter of perspective...

[Nug]

I'd really hate to read through all these posts to see if anyone's brought this up, but...

Why not just bring your own group and park where they are sitting if they don't want to share and see who's can do better? Is THAT against the rules?

[Kika Maslyaka]

Originally Posted by YendorLootmonkey [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Exactly. I agree with you. Play by the rules.

This is the current rule:

"7. We do not have a rule for how a camp will be handed off to another player. It is recommended the player interested in obtaining a camp work that out with who is on the camp already.
*Example* Player a is on jboots, player b comes and sits and just waits. If player a wants to hand off to his friend rather than player b, he has that right. If player a wants to hold a list and give to the next player on that list, that is also his right. GMs will not moderate that unless player b can prove he was deceived by player a with how the camp would be handed off. "

You want the rules changed because they aren't convenient for you. You want to circumvent the time/effort that someone else spent waiting for and securing/holding that camp for their friends. You, in effect, want to "cut in line" to get your shiny trinkets based on the current rules.

It's all a matter of perspective...

when Law is unjust - you fight to change it.
The way I (and few others) offer to change the law will establish equality and equal opportunity for ALL players. Current rule #7 heavily benefits closed players circles, and gives them unlimited opportunity to perma-lock mobs/camps/items/whatever. I cannot possible recognize this as ethical