Some of you got your wish

[mickmoranis]

Originally Posted by JurisDictum [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What like this guy?

That is amazing

[maskedmelon]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Excellent questions.

I only eat grass-fed/free-range meat because I believe that factory farming causes unnecessary suffering, so that answers #1. However I also have nothing against killing animals, even though that obviously involves some suffering, so clearly I'm in favor of minimizing suffering when it can't be eliminated completely (#2).

But then you have #3, and no I do not understand that safe injection sites subsidize suffering. Drug addicts don't think "gee, I could be addicted to smack today, but I'm out of clean needles ... well, I guess I better sober up". What they'll actually say is "I'm out of clean needles, guess I'll use a dirty one." And without a doubt dirty needles lead to disease, and disease leads to suffering.

So back at you: do you understand that not giving addicts access to clean needles means they will get diseases and suffer?

of course. how do you not understand that addiction causes suffering though? and how do you not see safe injection sites as supporting addiction? they are an accessory in the act.

safe injection sites curtail potential symptoms, while supporting the illness. it perpetuates long term suffering and the conditions leading the problems it seeks to minimize. how is that rational or moral?

[Lhancelot]

Originally Posted by Lemonhead [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We seem to view this problem as "junkies" crawling the streets and alleys. This is simply a myth. The great majority are (semi)functioning adults, even many heroin addicts. They are your coworkers, your athlete heroes, your neighbors, your family. And I promise you, you won't know, even those close to you. It's a really easy addiction to hide for a long time. (maybe not shooting up, but most aren't doing that)

There are more deaths from prescription opiods than from street opiods. But deaths are only the tip of the spear. This addiction digs deeper into the soul than you can imagine (pot? what?). And coming out of it is NOT just a week or 2 of withdrawal.

It is a battle to take your mind back and the Demon does not give up for a long, long time, if ever. Do opiates long enough (especially addictively), and it rewrites what it means to be a mammal, much less human. All pleasure, reward, motivation, lust, love gets tied to the Beast and removed from all other action.

It takes a lot of work and a lot of self-awareness (like only an addict can truely experience in some ways) to re-write the reward system in the brain. The longer away from reality, the longer the re-write takes. That's why the solutions are not simple, and why they go back 90% of the time. (PS. I volunteer in this field some and obviously have some experience)

Add: And all addictions have some element of this. It's just that opiates are just so effective at mimicking pure joy, but any drug can have similar struggles.

I really liked this post. agree with it. ^

These centers don't enable the drug users, not one bit. The drug addicts are going to continue the drug use whether a center is giving out free needles or not.

To get an addict off drugs it will take more than simply getting them through the withdrawal stage, it requires proper socialization of the person, re-wiring their brain by changing life habits not just removing the drugs from their life.

There are programs that do just this too, halfway houses. At best in my city halfway houses seem to be half-ass attempts to help drug addicts get off drugs and learn new living habits that would make it so they are less likely to go back to drugs.

Maybe there are some good ones out there, but all the men I talked to told me their halfway houses were corrupt and dysfunctional and I believe it seeing how many of them are still addicts and ending up back in jail.

If our country really wanted to get people off heroin and cocaine, I am sure people much smarter than me could figure out ways to implement social programs that actually worked.

Instead, we have this mentality where we think drug addiction goes hand in hand with criminality and drug addicts typically land in jail, where they should be. I don't agree with this.

Once in the correctional system, the chances for a drug addict to rewire their brains and get off the drugs for good is highly unlikely. Jail and the programs involved with jails are not working.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by maskedmelon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

of course. how do you not understand that addiction causes suffering though? and how do you not see safe injection sites as supporting addiction? they are an accessory in the act.

safe injection sites curtail potential symptoms, while supporting the illness. it perpetuates long term suffering and the conditions leading the problems it seeks to minimize. how is that rational or moral?

Again, no addict has ever thought "I'm out of clean needles, guess I'll stop being an addict". Maybe in fantasy land closing clean needle clinics makes people stop being addicts, but in reality the simple truth is that addicts are going to be addicts with or without needle clinics. The ONLY difference the clinics make is in determining whether those addicts get diseases.

Please, show me ANY evidence that clinics result in higher addiction rates, or that eliminating them reduces addiction. If you can it genuinely might change my opinion and make me believe you.

I won't hold my breath though, as whatever you find would have to contradict both the World Health Organization and the American Medical Association ...

Originally Posted by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Needle_exchange_programme

A comprehensive 2004 study by the World Health Organization (WHO) found a "compelling case that NSPs substantially and cost effectively reduce the spread of HIV among IDUs and do so without evidence of exacerbating injecting drug use at either the individual or societal level. WHO's findings have also been supported by the American Medical Association (AMA), which in 2000 adopted a position strongly supporting NSPs when combined with addiction counseling"

[Patriam1066]

Hate to agree with loramin and cecily but they're right on this topic. I don't want to pay for hepatitis treatments for fuckheads.

[maskedmelon]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Again, no addict has ever thought "I'm out of clean needles, guess I'll stop being an addict". Maybe in fantasy land closing clean needle clinics makes people stop being addicts, but in reality the simple truth is that addicts are going to be addicts with or without needle clinics. The ONLY difference the clinics make is in determining whether those addicts get diseases.

Please, show me ANY evidence that clinics result in higher addiction rates, or that eliminating them reduces addiction. If you can it genuinely might change my opinion and make me believe you.

I won't hold my breath though, as whatever you find would have to contradict both the World Health Organization and the American Medical Association ...

you ignored my questions, but it is obvious that addiction breeds suffering and safe injection sites subsidize addiction. im not interested in providing evidence for claims i haven't made or endorsed. the issue is in promoting addiction and selling it as such something praiseworthy because they are unwilling to sacrifice anything to actually solve the problem.

since you enjoy mischaracterizing arguments with bogus analogies, what you are effectively saying is, "well, I don't understand or give a shit about how these people or their families or friends feel and therefore have no interest in actually remedying their situation, so I'll just do "what i can" to ensure this particular misery endures while pretending I've furnished aid, elevating my own sense of self worth and superiority in doing so."

this is actually the reason why i respect barkingturtle's position on veganism even though i dont entirely agree with it. he actually changes the world for affected individuals. He sacrifices his time and resources to provide a better life for them rather than delivering organic chicken feed to slaughter houses or writing a $20 check for someone else to do it.

i guess another way of looking at the issue of safe injection sites is providing clean saws and medical aid to people who enjoy removing their own limbs. At least they won't get infection or die!

[Pokesan]

hear that loramin? if you don't personally solve the opioid crisis, you're a hypocrite

[maskedmelon]

Originally Posted by Pokesan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

hear that loramin? if you don't personally solve the opioid crisis, you're a hypocrite

no, the problem is that nobody gives a fuck and would prefer to instead stuff it in a box and watch while it metastizes, "Sure glad that ain't me. I've done my part though!"

[Pokesan]

Originally Posted by maskedmelon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

no, the problem is that nobody gives a fuck and would prefer to instead stuff it in a box and watch while it metastizes, "Sure glad that ain't me. I've done my part though!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXB-5MbKBgs

[skarlorn]

Earlier, I said "turn em into bologna."

I remediate that statement.

TURN EM INTO LASAGNA