My Theory About Why Feminism is Currently Irrelevent to Millenials

[Lhancelot]

Originally Posted by JurisDictum [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Turns out like 20% of people or something are into BDSM -- so you can expect its leather bound presence in popular culture and media for a long time.

Actually just googled it -- looks like its 36% of Americans compared to a 20% worldwide average. I'm going to blame that one on Christianity.

Leather looks awesome. Even those of us not into BDSM like how it looks.

Leather and sexual torture is not awesome.

Guess I fall into the 64% that aint into BDSM.

[maskedmelon]

The issue that I take with feminism in its present incarnation is that it shames femininity by insisting non-feminine traits are more praiseworthy than feminine ones. Its measure
of successes is misguided. it assumes that if women enjoy equal treatment with men then they will and should share the same ambitions. feminism in its current
form is a glorification of dominance, aggression and violence.

if you consider yourself a feminist in the traditional sense, welcome to the realm of modern thought. very few people disagree with you. it's liek declaring opposition to theft.

advocacy is important though because it affords people purpose. when nature has been so completely subdued that outside of irresponsibility or catastrophe she poses no significant threat to one's existence, it is one's primal duty to fabricate such opposition to one's existence that survival is still hard-won.

it also affords others a few imaginary steps up the dominance hierarchy, by establishing their superiority over women. it is not possible to help a superior. one must enjoy superiority in some regard to be able to help. whether the superiority is a product of chance or choice and whether one considers it as such is irrelevant.

advocacy is about fabricating purpose for onself and elevating one's self-worth with subordination of others, all with indifference to reality.

of course very few people harbor malicious intent with regard to their advocacy. the vast majority are entirely unaware of what they are doing or why.

none of this is of course meant to trivialize or ridicule the desire to help others. that is an admirable and useful trait, but it is something of which we should be aware and strive to protect from exploitation by destructive reasoning.

[maskedmelon]

Originally Posted by JurisDictum [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Actually just googled it -- looks like its 36% of Americans compared to a 20% worldwide average. I'm going to blame that one on Christianity.

wouldn't think it was maybe rooted in a glut of individual liberty and a burning need to escape the torment and fatigue of exces choice in the absence of relevance?

[loramin]

Originally Posted by maskedmelon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The issue that I take with feminism in its present incarnation is that it shames femininity by insisting non-feminine traits are more praiseworthy than feminine ones. Its measure of successes is misguided. it assumes that if women enjoy equal treatment with men then they will and should share the same ambitions. feminism in its current form is a glorification of dominance, aggression and violence.

if you consider yourself a feminist in the traditional sense, welcome to the realm of modern thought. very few people disagree with you. it's liek declaring opposition to theft.

Where do you get this from? Not the part about how being against traditional feminism is like being against theft (100% agree), but the parts about how modern feminism "shames femininity by insisting non-feminine traits are more praiseworthy than feminine ones" or that "feminism in its current form is a glorification of dominance, aggression and violence."

People seem to have a lot of crazy ideas about what feminism is, and I blame TV. There are a lot of people claiming a lot of things on TV, and the people who make TV showcase the people with the most extraordinary claims because it makes for better ratings ("sensationalism"). So if you watch only cable news and think the people Fox and CNN choose to represent feminism you could easily get a distorted view.

But if you look at actual feminist activism, and I mean the mainstream stuff (eg. Planned Parenthood supporters not the fringe weirdos who say crazy stuff like "all sex is rape"), I don't see any of what you're talking about. I was fairly involved in feminism at an extremely liberal college (basically the movie PCU was based on us and Berkeley). There was nothing about feminine traits being more praiseworthy (although there certainly was some "hey these male traits have had an oversized influence on our society for a long time, maybe we should value some of the more feminine traits that we haven't traditionally valued?"). And there was certainly nothing about the "glorification of dominance, aggression and violence".

[maskedmelon]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Where do you get this from? Not the part about how being against traditional feminism is like being against theft (100% agree), but the parts about how modern feminism "shames femininity by insisting non-feminine traits are more praiseworthy than feminine ones" or that "feminism in its current form is a glorification of dominance, aggression and violence."

im not confident in my ability to communicate this in a way that makes sense to you. I think you are probably better equipped to figure it out than i am to explain it ^^;

Let's start with a few questions:

1. what are feminine traits?
2. what are masculine traits?

People seem to have a lot of crazy ideas about what feminism is, and I blame TV. There are a lot of people claiming a lot of things on TV, and the people who make TV showcase the people with the most extraordinary claims because it makes for better ratings ("sensationalism"). So if you watch only cable news and think the people Fox and CNN choose to represent feminism you could easily get a distorted view.

i don't have cable television. the information that I consider comes from a variety of sources, none of which i visit habitually. if you would liek to point me to some of your preferred resources, I'll have a look at them ^^

But if you look at actual feminist activism, and I mean the mainstream stuff (eg. Planned Parenthood supporters not the fringe weirdos who say crazy stuff like "all sex is rape"), I don't see any of what you're talking about. I was fairly involved in feminism at an extremely liberal college (basically the movie PCU was based on us and Berkeley). There was nothing about feminine traits being more praiseworthy (although there certainly was some "hey these male traits have had an oversized influence on our society for a long time, maybe we should value some of the more feminine traits that we haven't traditionally valued?"). And there was certainly nothing about the "glorification of dominance, aggression and violence".

right on. it's not an overt advocacy for those things. if it were, most of the people who throw their support behind it would walk away. However, intent often fails to align with results. For example, a child might want to eat sugary treats every meal of every day even though they do not want cavities. similarly an addict may prefer to overindulge in certain stimuli even though they might not desire the accompanying costs in other areas of their life.

"The path to hell is paved with good intentions." as they say, or however that phrase goes. I'm not the greatest fan of proverbs (o^^o)


i would encourage you to consider the rest of my post though, because even though the particular excerpt you quoted is of interest to you, the latter part of that post is much more useful because it is broadly applicable ^^

[JurisDictum]

How I Reconciled Feminism with My First Step into the ‘Dark Side’ of BDSM

Adherents of radical feminism believe that egalitarianism means eradicating the desire for men and women to partake in domination games, particularly in sexuality. They criticize the consensual pain and domination experienced by submissive women yet gloss over the reality of submissive men, dominant women, and a plethora of powerful gender-bending LGBTQ people who partake in BDSM.

Human sexuality is not a neat and pretty package. It is the most lizard-like part of our brains. It is dark, dirty, mean, playful, dominant, submissive, and messy. That complexity and wildness is what makes sex fun, intense, complicated and dynamic. I won't be trading my kinky proclivities for the civil love-sessions of the sanctimonious.

Feminism has seemed to have turned into this kind of good ol' girls club. Where the elite, good-looking, interesting women write articles about whatever activities they are doing and then give a feminist take on it.

It's a social club where we all get together and reflect what its like to be a rich women and a rich man's world. Lots of talking about feelings, lots of abstract deep philosophy...

Not a lot there to do with petitioning the government. What laws do feminists want?

[loramin]

The massive amount of misinformation about feminism here is overwhelming. You guys are Don Quixote, fighting windmill monsters that don't exist. In fact, I'm willing to bet that I'm the only one in this thread who has actually known multiple real-life people involved in the feminist movement. The vast majority of you probably don't know even know one, and many likely don't even know anyone who identifies as a feminist.

The "glorification of dominance, aggression and violence" is antithetical to the feminist movement (going back to the very earliest days when temperance and feminism overlapped). Now melon if I understand your point, it's that "well they don't like that stuff, but they're stupid and do stupid counterproductive things which ultimately results in the glorification of dominance, aggression and violence" ... to which I say bullshit. Or at least, you have to back such an extraordinary claim up with something: I can claim the Republican party has a pro-gay agenda (and back it up by showing all the stupid things Republicans have done historically that have ultimately furthered gay rights) ... but that'd be a stupid argument to make. I certainly wouldn't just say "Republicans <3 gays: you are probably better equipped to figure it out than i am to explain it".

As for "adherents of radical feminism believe that egalitarianism means eradicating the desire for men and women to partake in domination games", these "radical feminists" are almost exclusively in people's imagination. I mean sure, you can find crazy people willing to say crazy things on any side of an argument, but again I have known a lot of feminists, and none of them were anything like that.

In fact they were all, every last one of them, far more sex-positive than your average person. They generally had a much better understanding of the concept that the human brain (and thus sex) is weird, and that there's nothing wrong with weirdness like BDSM as long as both parties are consenting and having fun.

Originally Posted by JurisDictum [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What laws do feminists want?

Crazy, insane liberal stuff, like greater legal protection against discrimination, harassment, rape and abuse, better support of women in abusive relationships, equal pay for equal work (the details of how to implement this one issue probably does vary between liberals/conservatives), elimination of child marriage, access to abortion (and female healthcare in general) for all women, more teaching of STEM to young girls, etc.

[JurisDictum]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The massive amount of misinformation about feminism here is overwhelming. You guys are Don Quixote, fighting windmill monsters that don't exist. In fact, I'm willing to bet that no one in this thread knows more than one actual real-life person involved in the feminist movement. In fact, the vast majority of you probably don't know even a single one; hell you probably don't even know anyone who even identifies as a feminist.

The "glorification of dominance, aggression and violence" is antithetical to the feminist movement. Now melon if I understand your point, it's that "well they don't like that stuff, but they're stupid and do stupid counterproductive things which ultimately results in the glorification of dominance, aggression and violence" ... to which I say bullshit. Or at least, you have to back that up with something: I can claim the Republican party has a pro-gay agenda (and back it up by showing all the stupid things Republicans have done historically that have ultimately furthered gay rights) ... but that'd be a stupid argument to make.

As for "adherents of radical feminism believe that egalitarianism means eradicating the desire for men and women to partake in domination games", these "radical feminists" are mostly in people's imagination. I mean sure, you can find crazy people willing to say crazy things on any side of an argument, but again I have known a lot of (active) feminists, and none of them were anything like that.

In fact they were all, every last one of them, sex positive. In fact, they generally had a much better understanding of the concept that the human brain (and thus sex) is weird, and that there's nothing wrong with weirdness like BDSM as long as both parties are consenting and having fun, than your average person.

I suggest to you that the feminism you are learning at college doesn't exist.

What they do is the same thing this woman did. "Well there's asshole men out there that think its wrong to wear a mini skirt as a hot girl in her 20s -- and telling this kind of guy off is really important even though no even fucking agrees with him."

Trust me, plenty of feminist types think if you like getting dominated by men you are somehow less feminist. But its not a real problem is it? It's a rich housewife kind of problem.

That's what the middle-elite ranged women don't see. It's silly time in the feminist world ATM. It's time to distract the plebs -- not help out poor women...

Edit: Keep in mind -- I don't go around saying this about every Social Justice movement. I just honestly think white and white-acting women are basically fine in America now. At least from a policy directional standpoint. There more of a watchdog at this point as far as use goes.

Blacks are trying for criminal justice reform -- but a lot of opportunists are kind of doing what the BDSM lady did in the above article. Using this as a moment to get attention and not looking at the big picture of whats going to help achieve criminal justice reform....but always happens in every movement.

[mickmoranis]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

People seem to have a lot of crazy ideas about what feminism is

meanwhile every feminist thinks trump is a nazi and goign to start world war 3...

do you see how what YOU think the feminist movement is, is not what OTHERS see when they hear feminists explain what the feminist movement is?

You have to rationalize your love of feminism to someone who doesnt care, the exact same way a libtard needs a trump supporter to explain "what it is he meant by that tweet"

you have injected your personal ideology into the idiology of the hive mind, but it doesn't work like that

Simply put, if you are a feminist now, that means white men are privlaged accross the board and deserve discrimination to balance history, and if you disagree with that then you are wrong and should either not talk at all or be forcibly removed from the conversation all together.

If you dont think that is the ideology of the feminist hive mind, then again, you are injecting your own individual ideology into the hive minds, and your ideology means nothing.

You can explain all you want about what YOUR beliefs are, but they are not the belifes of the hive mind and when you defend the hive mind but use your beliefs to do it, you just come off as crazy.

Feminism is a mob, out for justice, it's just on the internet, so it has become a mob that cannot disperse. Which is VERY dangerous.

Imagine if the KKK in the 1960s had the internet? That image is basically what has become of your movement.

[loramin]

So once again ... do either of you actually know even a single person who identifies as a feminist, let alone multiple people active in the movement? Or are you basing all this on your imaginary preconceptions of who feminists (that you've never met) are?