Originally Posted by h0tr0d (shaere)
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I acted rudely towards Clorox last night in Karnor's, and he was undeserving of such treatment. I went to apologize later, he was offline so I come here. To apologize yes, but also in part because it came down to a NBG disagreement. First, the situation.
Clorox had joined our group last night, and after a short time made the comment in group, bring me a tstaff. I asked if he was serious, he said something to the effect of, Yes I could sell it to buy stuff I needed. I disbanded him from the group. Now, this was rude and discourteous of me, and anything I state about NBG, or my frustration at the hours camping there mean nothing. I should not have acted that way despite my disagreement. I should have informed him this was NBG, and let him disband, not simply rudely remove him. I told him I would be damned if someone was going to join a group and expect to roll on a rare class specific item that I had been camping for, well, nearing 100 hours I am sure.
NBG... I think it is a misnomer sometimes. What defines need? Simply because you can use an item does not necessarily mean you will, and often times people claim NBG and then simply sell it. And then the next time they claim Need again for the same item, when in fact that is greed. Is it greed to want something to sell so you can buy things you need? What about if someone in the group genuinely need, then is the need equal? Does the rarity of the item factor into the equation? Is it even correct to term it greed? Some sell for items they need, some may not. Which is greed?
I see both sides of the argument. And in fact, I agree with the people who say 'greed' is the only fair way to do it. Everyone contributes in the group, and what incentive do people have to group certain locations if they have no chance at loot? This is why we do NBG for guild groups, or friends, right? This is one reason why you prefer guild groups, over pugs, to ensure it goes to those that can use. Because then, that benefits the guild as a whole. Pugs, or groups with strangers, or people who do not directly benefit you, should be greed groups.
I understand completely. I agree with the points made, the concerns voiced. I disagree, however,with what lies behind. I played on the server Tunare originally, and we didn't use DKP, we used what was called seniority. Now this was similar to how DKP worked it out in the end, basically if someone had been on 20 fear raids, and you 5, well the druid legs that dropped (if you were druids) were theirs. What was your incentive to raid? To build a reputation, to earn your spot, your turn. You didn't get invited to raids back then without a reputation. Without earning your stripes, as it were. In rare situations, there were rolls. We also used a last piece rule. If you needed one piece to complete an armor set, it was yours. I liked this system. Now there were flaws. We did not have clerics, or enchanters on fear raids. I remember maybe one fear raid where we had one cleric. Breaks were brutal. What was there for the clerics or enchanters to risk, or gain on an open fear raid?
It also worked in loot camps. Take frenzied. If it is NBG, what point is there for a cleric to come? EXP? I suppose it was different before spells started dropping of random mobs, but the point held. It was seniority. You were at the camp the longest in the group, you got the next sash. Essentially a list, within the group. No rolls, the guy that had 20 hours there was first up, and the player there 1 hour, wouldn't win and walk away. I hadn't heard of NBG or DKP until the server splits, and I encountered Mithaniel Marr players on Drinal.
I suppose DKP was the fairest way to do it amongst raiding guilds, because the only other way was to have a tight knit group of friends who all trust each other, and a leader or leaders who are trusted implicitly. This does not exist in the majority of guilds I have encountered in my time in EQ. How do you be fair to all, and reward the ones who attend the most raids? How do you not only be fair, but appear to be fair, to show you are being fair. How can people know, and view, the rewards for their efforts. If I make every raid for a month, I want to be rewarded more then the guy who did 4! So while it may not be the perfect solution, this is not a utopia, nor an ideal world/situation, so we come up with the best we can. And it works. But make no mistake, it is not perfect. But I digress, back to NBG on p99, in groups.
I think that everyone, whether they admit it not, want to be rewarded for their efforts. I would wager the high majority of players would be angry if someone got a piece of loot in 30 minutes, that they had been camping for weeks on end. Heck, think of how most feel, or what they say in this situation. You form a pickup group for any camp in game. You have been there for 5 hours, and a player has to leave. His replacement arrives, within 20 minutes a named is pulled, the loot is rolled, and they win. You know it happens. Are most of you happy? Or is the reaction usually somewhere along the lines of, "I have been here 5 hours, and this noob joins and wins loot within 20 minutes. WTF. " Now I ask you, is 'greed' totally fair there? Say it is an extremely valuable piece of loot. You have been camping it for 10 hours daily, for 12 days. The 13th day it finally drops, it is your class only, and a player on their first day in that zone ever wins it. A player you invited. What would your reaction be? Say you are forming a pickup raid for Nagafen. You form raids for him for 2 months. The next raid, the Cloak of Flames drop, which you really wanted. A 43 warrior on his first ever Nagafen raid attends, and wins. Is that fair? Or would you honestly rather you receive it, for all the work and time you put into obtaining it.
I understand every argument that says 'greed' rolls is the only true way to be fair. The points are valid, and true. Completely rational. And to an extent fair. And I only agree it is far, because of the simple question, "How do you define need?" Honestly, how does one define need on a guild raid. Is it usually need, or want, for most loot. Do the special drops really get divided fairly? Or go to a select few usually based on the efforts they make on behalf of the guild? Is it always purely DKP, or are there officers who add input and weigh it against the DKP?
I am of the mind I would like to be able to trust everyone. Unfortunately we all know this will never be reality, as people are everything from kind and considerate to selfish and petty. Some will seek to take advantage of need, as well as greed. I will say this. In some groups, rolling is the only fairway to do some things. But I tell you this. I prefer the Golden rule, vs any NBG rule you have. I know myself, I would not want someone rolling on a piece of loot I could use, and because of that I would not take anything they could use. I am not so ignorant someone can claim need all the time and get one over on me or my group. I am also not naive enough to believe no one could pull a fast one on me, and take advantage of using NBG in my group. NBG is a misnomer most of the time when I see it used. Maybe it should be UBS, Use before sell, or something equivalent. Call it Shaere da loot system if you will. Personally, I think it all depends. Every situation, piece of loot, players in group is different. With Pugs, or open groups, you can usually tell. Most of us can tell by looking at a player, without even inspecting them, what they need. You can tell by their spells, their gear, their level, their guildtag, how often you see them, if ever!
Call it naive if you will, but in my groups if it drop and you can use it, grats you. Provided I don't see you have better, or suspect it. I will ask. If you think you are smart, or slick if you manage to pull one over, you aren't. You're just a greedy wanker who will get their comeuppance one day. Karma is a bitch. But all this leads me back to...you are not greedy for wanting to sell items to buy stuff you need. But just as you can argue your need vs my need, I can argue you may not actually sell it for stuff you need, and your possible greed does not outweigh my possible need. If I am something I need, do not expect to roll. But I guarantee you this. Unlike certain other people, I will never roll on an item you need. You can either trust me or not. But you most certainly will not roll for something someone needs/will use in my group even if your claim is legitimate in that you would sell it for stuff you need. I choose being naive and fooled by someone who claims they will use it, over someone who claims they will use it to buy stuff they need. A lesser of two evils if you wish.
And Clorox? I apologize for my behavior. I should not have removed you from group so abruptly, you did nothing to warrant such treatment. You are not selfish or greedy in your thinking, I simply view the situation with a wider scope, or perhaps more narrowly. Rest assured if you wish to camp an item you can use and you need my help, I would attach no price tag to it. Or , if the camp I was in dropped an item you could use and I could not, I would not deign to deny you that item. I would help you without recompense or reward. Sufficed to say, it is enough you need my help, you would not need to promise me loot or a chance at loot for that help. I camp items I need, and will help others do the same. If I want an item, I go camp it. Imagine someone or someones camping a cleric epic camp/item....and selling you the loot rights to that mob.
No thank you.
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04-06-2011, 10:43 AM
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