Joeseph Stack's Suicide Letter

[Ikeren]

@Hasbin; I'm a little confused.
1) I state that I have noticed a trend in conspiracy theories to have a superiority complex.
2) You point out that that is no reason to dismiss all conspiracy theories. I agree with you on this point. I just think the superior attitude is not beneficial to spreading the theory.
3) I state that I am moderately sceptical of IRS theory based on the 1 page spread he presented.
4) I state that I am attempting to torrent it, but would like more information because the torrent is moving very slowly (3.2% at this moment).
5) IRS refuses to provide more information, showing precisely the superior attitude that I have found in previous research on conspiracy theories.
6) I say that more information would be helpful for understanding the theory.

You jump in at this point, seeming to confuse the fact that I am not necessarily referring to all conspiracy theories, but just a trend I have seen when investigating them thus far. I have done a fair bit of reading (not only youtube videos and online, but also in psychological and historical journals and physical books from both sides of the pro and anti conspiracy theory sides), but have not encountered the author IRS specifically mentioned. The conspiracy theories that have seen most reasonable are the ones that avoid the superior attitude. I am not trying to dismiss all conspiracy theories; I think several (but not all) have valid and interesting things to say. But even as I find facts and ideas very interesting (and true, some of the time), I often find the method and tone poor for explaining the ideas contained in even the most-likely true of conspiracy theories.

Now I'm confused as to what part of this you disagree with.

@Banned: Good videos (though some of the content isn't true, most noticably and obviously with the first video) I had seen the first 3, but the last one I only had found clips of. I'll watch the rest this afternoon probably.

[Bannedfornoreason]

what about the first video isn't true? It might be hard to accept the truth... it is hard to believe that they put fluoride into the water supply too though isn't it? http://www.fluoridealert.org/absurdity.htm

[Ikeren]

Lets assume for a second I wasn't doing real research and checking scholarly sources (which I am), and wasn't also reading contradictory sources (some of which I also don't believe, but we don't live in a dichotomous world these days); say I was so lazy that all I did was check wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom...m#Inaccuracies


Also, the very premise itself is somewhat, maybe not fallacious in itself, but moderately unsound. The argument is 1) There is no law that says we must pay taxes (a fact, that may or may not be true), therefore, we should not pay our taxes. Even if the former is true (that there is no law saying we must pay taxes), and sufficient sound journalism reveals it, then the government just makes this law. And there is no major outcry, because there already is a convention of taxation.

I do, however, agree that some of his examples provide interesting information about peoples general lack of knowledge on the subject of taxation and the lack of clarity in tax statutes, but as a whole, does the argument make sense? No; because the real question is not "Are we legally obligated to pay taxes" but instead is "Are we morally obligated to pay taxes, and how much?"; a different, and much more relevant question. Russo assumes we already all know the answer (no; we are not morally obligated), but the actual debate is still up in the air; especially in other countries (I'm Canadian, and while I recognize much of this material is designed for the US, questions of moral obligation to taxation matter for all democratic nations) where the tangible benefits of taxation is whatever the US has + healthcare (in Canada), to even whatever the US has + healthcare + Post Secondary Education (in the European Union). It's not a question of "are we legally bound to pay taxes" but instead "Are the taxes we pay being spent well?" If the answer is no, there, then it calls for a change in government.

I could, and have, written essays on the subject, but I'll be shorter here for everyone's benefit (including my own).

[Humerox]

Redundant material. Drive through.

[IRS]

Originally Posted by Ikeren [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I do, however, agree that some of his examples provide interesting information about peoples general lack of knowledge on the subject of taxation and the lack of clarity in tax statutes, but as a whole, does the argument make sense? No; because the real question is not "Are we legally obligated to pay taxes" but instead is "Are we morally obligated to pay taxes, and how much?"; a different, and much more relevant question. Russo assumes we already all know the answer (no; we are not morally obligated), but the actual debate is still up in the air; especially in other countries (I'm Canadian, and while I recognize much of this material is designed for the US, questions of moral obligation to taxation matter for all democratic nations) where the tangible benefits of taxation is whatever the US has + healthcare (in Canada), to even whatever the US has + healthcare + Post Secondary Education (in the European Union). It's not a question of "are we legally bound to pay taxes" but instead "Are the taxes we pay being spent well?" If the answer is no, there, then it calls for a change in government.

I could, and have, written essays on the subject, but I'll be shorter here for everyone's benefit (including my own).

This is why your corrupt government taxes you. Because your fucking head is in the sand debating on if it's your "moral" obligation. Stupid canadians.

"Through the reading of popular scientific books I soon reached the conviction that much of the stories in the Bible could not be true. The consequence was a positive fanatic orgy of free thinking coupled with the impression that youth is intentionally being deceived by the State through lies. It was a crushing impression. Suspicion against every kind of authority grew out of this experience, a skeptical attitude towards the convictions which were alive in any specific social environment - an attitude which never left me, even though later on, because of a better insight into causal connections, it lost some of its orginal poignancy."
-Albert Einstein

[Villide]

I filed no return that year thinking that because I didn’t have any income there was no need. The sleazy government decided that they disagreed. But they didn’t notify me in time for me to launch a legal objection so when I attempted to get a protest filed with the court I was told I was no longer entitled to due process because the time to file ran out.

This guy is an embarrassment. And my guess is his letter is probably full of distortions and outright lies - and some of you just absorb it as absolute truth, since it gives you a chance to lash out at the government.

Joseph Stack is no better and no more righteous than the dumbass dad who kills himself and takes his family with him. What a joke.

[Villide]

Originally Posted by Villide [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This guy is an embarrassment. And my guess is his letter is probably full of distortions and outright lies - and some of you just absorb it as absolute truth, since it gives you a chance to lash out at the government.

Joseph Stack is no better and no more righteous than the dumbass dad who kills himself and takes his family with him. What a joke.

And just to balance out some of the nonsense:

http://www.salon.com/news/joe_stack/.../vernon_hunter

His son, Ken Hunter, told local reporters he was tired of the media paying too much attention to the fractured and incoherent political beliefs espoused by the demented Stack, and not enough attention to his father's life:

"There was just too much going on about what the guy did and what he believed in, and enough's enough. They don't need to talk about him. Talk about my dad. You know, some people are trying to make this guy out to be a hero, a patriot. My dad served two terms in Vietnam. This guy never served at all. My dad wasn't responsible for his tax problems."

Hunter said his father was the kind of guy who'd have tried to help Stack with the tax troubles that supposedly drove Stack to the violence that took Hunter's life.

[Hasbinbad]

Ikeren, you seem like a decently educated fellow, I'm sure if you review your writings, you can find - all on your own - the wantonly generalized negative statements which I take issue with. In fact, I think I even quoted 1 or 2. Also, while you might want to nitpick and say that this statement or that statement was specific, the overriding tone of your post was that all conspiracy theories are bad because the one's you have examined were bad. If you don't agree with the previous sentence, you may want to work on your communication skills.

That being said, I don't really give a shit.

That being said, with a little work, these sentences could end up as a really great quote.

Originally Posted by Ikeren [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's not a question of "are we legally bound to pay taxes" but instead "Are the taxes we pay being spent well?" If the answer is no, there, then it calls for a change in government.

[Ikeren]

@Hasbin: You're right, I admit that my distaste for the method in which theories get expressed and espoused led to poor articulation of my actual stance. That was definitely not what I was attempting to convey. I do think all theories are worth at the very least, reading about and investigating.


@IRS: I know exactly what I get for my taxes; I've looked at the government budget and how the money I pay breaks down into benefits for me. A short list includes Healthcare, Post-Secondary Education funding, Public Transit Subsidization, massive amounts of urban development work, funding for artists, public schools. And while I don't use the last two, that doesn't prevent them from being projects I support.

For what I pay, I am reasonably certain that I'm getting a pretty good deal.

[Bannedfornoreason]

Perhaps you don't know... banks basically own the US. This should sum things up for you. Theres no funny business going on here. This is just how it is. Its a shame that only 20% of the US population know this. and only 35% of those people care and only 10% of those actually do anything about it. When you fluoridate water people become dumb...

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3s...-1-of_politics