Solo Melee class

[welly321]

Originally Posted by paulgiamatti [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Not necessarily. A bottleneck is a component of something bigger than itself - the actual bottle. Everything that comes before the Pulsing Green Stone is much easier within the context of that quest. It's a point in the bottle where progress slows down, assuming you're completing each step consecutively, because flow is constricted - it's not as constricted as the warrior epic's Green Dragon Scales, or the magician's Staff of Elemental Mastery: Earth, but it's still a bottleneck. It's just a wider bottleneck.

My argument was that VSR is not difficult whatsoever to take down because hes up alot.

[paulgiamatti]

And my argument is that taking down a spawned VS, or even just saving up 30k and finding a person selling a Pulsing Green Stone, is in fact much more difficult than everything else that precedes that step in the quest. Hence it is a bottleneck.

[georgie]

I've seen an sk solo year on red. I hope this solidifies your decision.

[Foxplay]

There are only a few key mechanics to consider in terms of solo power when it comes to the melee classes.

As anyone who has played EQ should know, NPC's scale faster than players. Level 60 warrior player = lets say 4k hp depending on gear . Level 60 warrior NPC 10k+ some higher. But also there melee damage also scales higher, even with good weapons melee players will be hitting in the 40s - 80s, mid 100s to low 200's for a 2hander. While NPC's can quad for 120 - 150 in just the 50s, some mobs higher.

So the key mechanic is to avoid melee damage entirely, prevent it or mitigating it comes secondary, out-healing or out damaging it is 3rd rung

Monks only real way of entirely avoiding melee damage (while still hurting the mob themself) is via stun proc's such as Tstaff. Their mitigation is pretty decent. And for healing they have mend, which is pretty good and scales with gear but its limited use due to its cooldown. As for damage depending on gear they can have really good damage. But by not having a significant method of completely avoiding melee damage monks fall short in terms of solo power due to scaling. *epic adds to dps capability

Shadowknight can completely avoid most if not all melee damage via (snare/fear) kiting, thus it becomes their mana pool and melee dmg versus just a health pool *so long as the fear is safe and does not run into more mobs*. Their mitigation is good being a tank class and able to wear plate. For out healing they have life taps which can go a long way but I wouldn't expect any miracles, the more mana used on life taps means less mana to keep snare/fear up constantly which avoiding damage entirely > healing damage in EQ. Damage wise SK is ok but nothing to write home about unless you are geared to the absolute teeth (TOVN weapons), Due to the ability to completely avoid melee damage SK is definitely a rung above monk - *epic adds to SK healing capability

Ranger like SK can completely avoid melee damage provided it is a non-summoning mob via Bow-kiting, all this requires is snare (very low mana) lots of arrows (can be summoned with tolan bracer but takes a lot of time) and a decent amount of space. Although this method can be slow it can kill anything unable to summon that is not a caster aka straight melee npcs the main cost being only time as spell wise this is very mana efficient. However due to its stipulations it does limit the areas that it can be used. Mitigation rangers are decent not as good as SK, but better than monk if similar gear if you don't count mend. Without bow-kiting rangers can snare/fear too but are limited to animals which again limits where the method can be used, but will save a lot of time not summoning arrows. In a straight up melee fight rangers are fairly decent, with self regen, and thorns and decent melee dps + dot ticks. Healing wise without running any numbers id say rangers are on par with SK who is using a lot of mana for lifetaps, as constant regen, and small little heals after fights do add up. *Epic adds greatly to melee mitigation via a slow proc

If we consider these major mechanics, and compare 3 equally geared to the teeth + epic . Monk / SK / Ranger

I would say Ranger is strongest solo, but not by much mainly because is more situational. I would personally rate ranger just ever so slightly above SK due to the slow proc on their epic. (Slow = Lots of dmg mitigation)

Shadowknight is best well rounded, and less situational melee solo power

Monk, while better than rogue and warrior really cant compare to mechanics that can completely avoid melee damage that the ranger and SK hybrids have in their spells when considering simply for flat out solo power

If you throw bard into the mix just forget it, they win, no contest.

[Troxx]

Rangers are better at mitigating (combining AC mitigation and avoidance here) than monks?

Lol.

No.

Your other points are very valid but that bit is insanely wrong. Monk mitigation is better than, comparable to, or second only to warriors depending on gear.

[Jimjam]

Originally Posted by paulgiamatti [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

And my argument is that taking down a spawned VS, or even just saving up 30k and finding a person selling a Pulsing Green Stone, is in fact much more difficult than everything else that precedes that step in the quest. Hence it is a bottleneck.

Clearly we have a different perspective. Perhaps you at thinking of the pre-VSR days?

Personally, it took me far more time and effort running around foraging rare items, or farming orc pawns for a rare spawn elf, than it did to hand in a 100pp item and politely ask someone to bat phone 2 groups of players (who kindly) killed VS in like 40 seconds with me. Obviously it was even less work for whoever got the second stone for free just by showing up to help.

I suppose a single data point (or two if you include the Omni druid) is just an anecdote, but that is my experience.

[Foxplay]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Rangers are better at mitigating (combining AC mitigation and avoidance here) than monks?

Lol.

No.

Your other points are very valid but that bit is insanely wrong. Monk mitigation is better than, comparable to, or second only to warriors depending on gear.

And you prove how little you know, mitigation wise if a ranger procs slow sword they are absolutely better at mitigating damage than monks + self regen and some buffs . On a pure solo basis monk has no self buffs at all (unless you count staff of sheilding proc?) Yet it does not matter in the slightest in terms of the original question. The full question was pertaining to each classes toolkit for solo strength. In which Ranger wins over monk hands down. A monk has no way of completely avoiding melee damage, self slowing the mob (without using clicks) while their base mitigation / avoidance AC may be slightly higher than a ranger, after you count regen, self buffs, and slow proc ranger takes a huge lead *mostly with the proc* mitigation is not soley how much AC and avoidance you have you have to take into account abilities and healing that dramatically increase your effective hp, and slow is an enourmas contribution to that

If you are considering total mitigation to be just standing there, no buffs, no slow at all then a monk > ranger. Also in group situations with other classes buffs Monk > Ranger. But this discussion is about solo power which narrows it down to each classes specific toolkit assuming no outside help.

[Jimjam]

Interesting discussion, Foxplay/Troxx.

I did a parse fairly recently of the average damage taken by different melees in hands against the highest level mobs in Karnor's Castle (the circa 48-51 stuff).

Basically every class level 51 + took similar average hits, and it was actually avoidance that separated the classes (Monk>knight>paladin from the examples I parsed). Basically, against some xp content it is possible to trivially 'cap' mitigation. If you were soloing lower level mobs I imagine this margin in avoidance would narrow also.

While Troxx is right if you exclusively consider mitigate+avoidance, I feel if you add in Earthcaller (or at lower level swarmcaller?) the ranger might actually do better against some mobs, especially if the monk doesn't play within his weight superlimits.

[paulgiamatti]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Personally, it took me far more time and effort running around foraging rare items, or farming orc pawns for a rare spawn elf

The errand-running stuff is just a multitude of low-difficulty, easily soloable tasks. Time-consuming, sure, but that's literally all it is: a timesink.

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

than it did to hand in a 100pp item and politely ask someone to bat phone 2 groups of players (who kindly) killed VS in like 40 seconds with me. Obviously it was even less work for whoever got the second stone for free just by showing up to help.

Most people will not be able to do that, even if they are guilded. And if they are, there's a very good chance their guild will have no idea about how to kill VS and will just throw 40 players at him, watch them all get lifetapped into oblivion, wipe, and then he despawns. Try again in 12 hours or whatever. It's a high-difficulty step in the quest when compared to the preceding steps.

CSG has that fight down to a science. They make it look easy, but to pretty much any other casual raiding guild on the server, VS is not a walk in the park. So more often than not that is the bottleneck in the quest. It wasn't for me, but it'd be myopic of me to say, "Oh, that shit was easy for me, so that must mean it's easy for everyone!"

[welly321]

Originally Posted by paulgiamatti [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The errand-running stuff is just a multitude of low-difficulty, easily soloable tasks. Time-consuming, sure, but that's literally all it is: a timesink.



Most people will not be able to do that, even if they are guilded. And if they are, there's a very good chance their guild will have no idea about how to kill VS and will just throw 40 players at him, watch them all get lifetapped into oblivion, wipe, and then he despawns. Try again in 12 hours or whatever. It's a high-difficulty step in the quest when compared to the preceding steps.

CSG has that fight down to a science. They make it look easy, but to pretty much any other casual raiding guild on the server, VS is not a walk in the park. So more often than not that is the bottleneck in the quest. It wasn't for me, but it'd be myopic of me to say, "Oh, that shit was easy for me, so that must mean it's easy for everyone!"

just admit your bad at everquest