Thott on Kunark

UrsusMajor · #1 03-22-2011, 03:42 PM

While leveling up is not on the way out, it has been drastically decreased. Look at two of the most recent games, DCUO and Rift.

In DCUO you can go 1-30 over a long weekend. I rolled a character on a PvE server on Thursday evening after work and was 30 by early Sunday afternoon.

Rift, people were 50 by the end of the first week of release. While these were mainly the poopsocking crowd, I just hit 50 on my main two days ago, took 3 weeks for me.

Compare that to some of the original MMO's like UO, EQ an AC where for UO and EQ it took most everyone months (if you didn't macro in UO) to get to max skill/level. I believe my main character on Siege Perilous was just actually approaching being a 7xGM when about 8 months later I moved to AC. Speaking of AC, I don't believe anyone hit the max level of 126 until well over a year after the game was out.

I think this is mainly do to a shift in the gameplay of MMO's. They used to be very much about the world you played in and actual adventuring. Today leveling is just looked at as a means to an end when the realy game actually begins.

When was the last time any MMO had an expansion like Kunark? An expansion that wasn't just about increasing your characters levels but actually gave you a bunch of content for levels 1-50. The Burning Crusade gave us two new races but only new content for levels 1-20. With Cataclysm you got some new content for levels 1-10 for the new races and revamped content to STREAMLINE leveling from 10-60.

fugazi · #2 03-22-2011, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UrsusMajor [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

snip

Don't forget that EQ back then didn't have any kind of competition. Nowadays, the attention-span of a game is radically shorter and you need to pack a punch in the time you're given to make a lasting impression. If EQ was released now, with newer graphics but the gameplay of 1999, we'd laugh at it and call it utter shit. The time invested does not warrant the rewards (xp/loot), that's why EQlive steered away from the original.

Don't forget that McQuaid based EQ pretty much on AD&D. There you level once every so many sessions, while a computer has to reward you each time you play. In 1999 they had the luxury to succeed with this approach, in 2011 such an approach is destined to fail.

UrsusMajor · #3 03-22-2011, 06:46 PM

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Originally Posted by fugazi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Don't forget that EQ back then didn't have any kind of competition. Nowadays, the attention-span of a game is radically shorter and you need to pack a punch in the time you're given to make a lasting impression. If EQ was released now, with newer graphics but the gameplay of 1999, we'd laugh at it and call it utter shit. The time invested does not warrant the rewards (xp/loot), that's why EQlive steered away from the original.

Don't forget that McQuaid based EQ pretty much on AD&D. There you level once every so many sessions, while a computer has to reward you each time you play. In 1999 they had the luxury to succeed with this approach, in 2011 such an approach is destined to fail.

How do you KNOW it's destined to fail? Nobody has even tried something like it since DAoC? When WoW first came out it took much longer to actually level than it does now and I don't remember people complaining. You have a large number of people playing on P99, you have an even larger number of people playing on the two EQ Live timelocked progression servers.

Do I think a game with a long leveling process would draw the millions that WoW has, no, but I don't think any game can actually do that. Do I think a game with a long leveling curve could actually be successful today, yes I do.

mwatt · #4 03-22-2011, 07:50 PM

I think that whether one will agree or disagree with the main premise of this article is based upon one's basic approach to this type of game. There are two basic "types" of people in the MMO world:

A) People who don't consider that they have "won" the game until max level. They want to reach max level so the "real" game can begin, which is more or less "raiding", or in some scenarios, "PVP".

B) People who "win" every level because they appreciate the game for the journey, as much or more than they appreciate it for the end game.

Most gamers, at least these days, probably belong to camp "A". So for correctness based upon sheer numbers, the article probably espouses a real truth of sorts. I belong to camp "B". I suspect that simply by virtue of being here, so do many of the other players in Project 1999. It is a sadness to me that there are so many players in the world who would fit into camp "A".

Elissa · #5 03-23-2011, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mwatt [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think that whether one will agree or disagree with the main premise of this article is based upon one's basic approach to this type of game. There are two basic "types" of people in the MMO world:

A) People who don't consider that they have "won" the game until max level. They want to reach max level so the "real" game can begin, which is more or less "raiding", or in some scenarios, "PVP".

B) People who "win" every level because they appreciate the game for the journey, as much or more than they appreciate it for the end game.

Most gamers, at least these days, probably belong to camp "A". So for correctness based upon sheer numbers, the article probably espouses a real truth of sorts. I belong to camp "B". I suspect that simply by virtue of being here, so do many of the other players in Project 1999. It is a sadness to me that there are so many players in the world who would fit into camp "A".

You're right but I think there's also a little more to it. Why is "max" level so enticing in this game or other games? Lots of reasons, I'm sure, but there is definitely the aspect of having access to and getting the best or nearly the best available gear.

Classic EQ was fun before max level for a lot of reasons, but not the least of which was that, in most cases, you simply didn't quickly outlevel rewards you obtained while making your journey to 50. I might get a sweet item leveling up in my teens that I could very reasonably continue to wear into my 30s (or higher). Sure, you can argue this is because there weren't too many equipment options, but there are enough. I always hated WoW's loot system... finding better gear within a couple level's time at most (which was only a matter of hours of playing). Conversely, in EQ I remember feeling absolutely incredible wearing a full set of bronze... BRONZE. Not saturating the market with tons of new equipment that rapidly scales with level is highly preferable to me. EQ rewards max level players with the best items, but they're not (in many cases) leaps and bounds ahead of what you could have obtained at an earlier level.

Of course, this system (I believe) can only work when leveling is hard. If it's easy, it would be silly to have amazing items obtainable at level 25 that are still great at 50.

Rael · #6 03-23-2011, 07:26 AM

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Originally Posted by UrsusMajor [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

How do you KNOW it's destined to fail? Nobody has even tried something like it since DAoC?

Vanguard, but that failed due to a rushed release/bugs more than anything.

yorumi · #7 03-23-2011, 08:35 AM

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Originally Posted by Rael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Vanguard, but that failed due to a rushed release/bugs more than anything.

Vanguard really wasn't a classic eq style game when it launched. They said that is what they were making but it's not what they ended up making. By the time the game was release it was largely a WoW clone.

More than anything vanguard is an example that a classic eq style game would work. Think about all the buzz that was generated when it was thought it was a going to be like classic eq made by the creator of eq. Then when they utterly failed to deliver anything remotely like that it was a commercial disaster.

mwatt · #8 03-23-2011, 02:14 PM

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Originally Posted by Rael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Vanguard, but that failed due to a rushed release/bugs more than anything.

I fell in love with VG. It was sheer torture to watch what happened. First SOE "saved it", like fishing a drowning butterfly out of a swimming pool. Then they proceeded to pull off it's legs and wings, one by one.

garyogburn · #9 03-23-2011, 07:08 PM

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Originally Posted by mwatt [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I fell in love with VG. It was sheer torture to watch what happened. First SOE "saved it", like fishing a drowning butterfly out of a swimming pool. Then they proceeded to pull off it's legs and wings, one by one.

Me too. I played a blood mage and had a blast. Couldnt make it past 30ish though. I remember in one dungeon when you pulled one mob, it trained the ENTIRE ZONE onto you lol. Could of been great though.

I think the whole leveling debate is kinda moot. What makes EQ awesome isnt about the long leveling times, its what happens while you are leveling. You interact with other players in ways you just cant in other games. You really get to know people and rely on them so you dont get screwed over by the crazy death penalties :P

Bruno · #10 03-23-2011, 08:00 PM

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Originally Posted by Rael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Vanguard, but that failed due to a rushed release/bugs more than anything.

Vanguard was very hardware intensive. I actually bought a new computer just to be able to play it. There was also not much to do at level 50 except pvp, which was ridiculously imbalanced. Phoenix shaman were just insane. I thought the crafting system was pretty neat though.

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Originally Posted by azeth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

60-65 was miserable for me also, I think I spent most of my time in Bastion of Thunder and Plane of Valor.

I'm always in the minority when I say I loved PoP. Flagging and clearing time was probably up there with my favorite raids in EQ. I will never forget the rathe council.