Raid guild loot systems other than DKP?

[Vallanor]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You want to pay me for showing up for your guild event or put myself on-call for your guild, you better be paying me dollars, not pixels. I'm not turning my hobby time into a really lousy second job just for pixel currency. Likewise, trying to coerce people into showing up for events they don't want to go to strikes me as a lousy way to run something that's supposed to be fun.

I'll stick with guilds that /random or merit things out and keep the game--a game. Nothing against folks who're okay with the currency system, but it isn't for me.

Danth

Who's asking you to turn raiding into a job? DKP encourages participation whether or not your class benefits from an activity. It doesn't *require* participation at anything. Come raid when you feel like raiding. Don't raid when you're busy. We have a ton of casual players in Azure Guard who raid very infrequently and they still get loot. Less than highly active players, but enough to keep everyone more or less happy. This is the same thing /random is supposed to do, right?

I feel like you're conflating the concept of DKP with the kinds of hardcore guilds that require a huge raid percentage just to spend their DKP or require attendance when online. Those two things need not go hand in hand, and in Azure Guard's case, do not.

[Lhancelot]

Originally Posted by Vallanor [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We have a ton of casual players in Azure Guard who raid very infrequently and they still get loot. Less than highly active players, but enough to keep everyone more or less happy.

I realize your statement is purely subjective here, but let me ask you this. If you use a DKP system, and you earm DKP by attending raids, how is a "casual" going to "still get loot"?

If those casuals joined your guild for raiding, exactly how are they "more or less happy"? It has to be one or the other. I think the latter part is more accurate regarding the casuals in your guild. They are probably less happy, while the frequent warm bodies that attend raids constantly racking up DKP are more happy.

It sounds like you run a structured system for loot and it's probably very popular with you and your guild members but without picking it apart I can see faults and flaws even in your looting system.

[Joyelle]

Originally Posted by Vallanor [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I feel like you're conflating the concept of DKP with the kinds of hardcore guilds that require a huge raid percentage just to spend their DKP or require attendance when online. Those two things need not go hand in hand, and in Azure Guard's case, do not.

I don't think any of the "hardcore" guilds on p99 require a "huge" raid percentage (unless you mean Donald Trump's definition of huge) to bid on loot with their DKP systems.

Awakened requires 15% for the absolute top tier items and anyone with less than that bids as a second main. I believe AM uses 20% for their benchmark and I don't know if they have any kind of tier system, but even 20% is very easy to achieve without playing neckbeard amounts of hours because of how often we raid. It's probably a little more time than what your typical CSG raider puts in, but it's definitely not as crazy as you make it out to be. Not everyone in these guilds are basement-dwelling virgins, most of us actually do have jobs and families. There are some that make you wonder though...

[Vallanor]

Originally Posted by Lhancelot [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If those casuals joined your guild for raiding, exactly how are they "more or less happy"? It has to be one or the other.

I can see faults and flaws even in your looting system.

They are "more or less" happy because they are individuals with varying goals and I don't want to speak for everyone. We don't have a lot of complaints about the loot system.

Yes, there are flaws with our system as there are with every loot system, including /random. That's been stated numerous times in this thread.

I guess I'm not sure what else I can contribute to this thread. If you like the idea that everyone at a given raid is just as likely to win Item X regardless of their previous contributions, we've got guilds for that. If you like the idea of being rewarded for helping out even when an event doesn't benefit you personally, there are other guilds for that.

No system is going to be perfect. I'm just trying to explain how a DKP system can accommodate lots of different play styles efficiently. I'm not sure I'm doing a very good job.

[Rygar]

Originally Posted by Lhancelot [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I realize your statement is purely subjective here, but let me ask you this. If you use a DKP system, and you earm DKP by attending raids, how is a "casual" going to "still get loot"?

If those casuals joined your guild for raiding, exactly how are they "more or less happy"? It has to be one or the other. I think the latter part is more accurate regarding the casuals in your guild. They are probably less happy, while the frequent warm bodies that attend raids constantly racking up DKP are more happy.

It sounds like you run a structured system for loot and it's probably very popular with you and your guild members but without picking it apart I can see faults and flaws even in your looting system.

I consider myself a casual raider, I want to get myself some full SS gear from HoT is basically the extent of what I'm after. So I earn my DKP very slowly, the hard core folks aren't bidding on HoT drops because they probably have it all. I gradually build up enough points to beat newer members and win an item. I'm not sprinting the raid scene by any means.

Since my son we born 6 months ago I can raid like once a month, with no % raid attendance required, AG is perfect for me.

[icedwards]

Originally Posted by Lhancelot [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I realize your statement is purely subjective here, but let me ask you this. If you use a DKP system, and you earm DKP by attending raids, how is a "casual" going to "still get loot"?

If those casuals joined your guild for raiding, exactly how are they "more or less happy"? It has to be one or the other. I think the latter part is more accurate regarding the casuals in your guild. They are probably less happy, while the frequent warm bodies that attend raids constantly racking up DKP are more happy.

It sounds like you run a structured system for loot and it's probably very popular with you and your guild members but without picking it apart I can see faults and flaws even in your looting system.

Are you seriously complaining that a raider who shows up x2 more than a casual raider gets geared twice as fast?

[Lhancelot]

Originally Posted by icedwards [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Are you seriously complaining that a raider who shows up x2 more than a casual raider gets geared twice as fast?

That's not exactly what I wrote... I don't have the energy to go into it deeper tbh. He responded to my post regarding what I actually wrote, though.

[Expediency]

Originally Posted by Lhancelot [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I realize your statement is purely subjective here, but let me ask you this. If you use a DKP system, and you earm DKP by attending raids, how is a "casual" going to "still get loot"?

If those casuals joined your guild for raiding, exactly how are they "more or less happy"? It has to be one or the other. I think the latter part is more accurate regarding the casuals in your guild. They are probably less happy, while the frequent warm bodies that attend raids constantly racking up DKP are more happy.

It sounds like you run a structured system for loot and it's probably very popular with you and your guild members but without picking it apart I can see faults and flaws even in your looting system.

Its pretty easy.

Say the guild pays out 5dkp an hour. Player X raids 10 times a month, he has 50 dkp. Player Y raids 20 times a month, he has 100.

Player X can either bid on loot that is typically awarded for less dkp or can bank his dkp at half the rate of player Y to get the top items.

If player Z comes in and raids 50 times a month and gets 250dkp, he obviously gets more loot.

None of these players are locked out of the top items, they just all must wait different times to be able to win them based on their play schedules.

Occasionally all guilds run across people who want something for nothing. If you're one of those people a dkp system probably isnt for you. /random really does not benefit people who have no items at that encounter and they have no incentive to show up to them. For instance, my druid has every single sky quest item that I want on that character. If I was to join your guild, why would I ever got to sky to help if I earn no points and stand to get no loot? In a dkp setup I'm awarded for bringing my geared 60 druid to help, in a /random situation I'm only doing it because I enjoy the raid.

[Danth]

Originally Posted by Vallanor [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Who's asking you to turn raiding into a job?

If you're getting paid currency as compensation for performing a task then you're working a job by definition. Heck, most of the guilds that use currency systems, including yours, have some form of application process too! As such, I require dollars as my compensation, not "DKP" or whatever you call your company scrip.

No system's perfect. They all have faults. DKP inherently turns a guild into a really rotten employer. Loot council's only as good as the council running it; some are better than others. I've seen both good and bad councils on P1999. /Random works great for cases where items drop relatively often (halls of testing or plane of growth armor, etc) but can fail spectacularly in cases where a guild might obtain some specific item only once in a blue moon. Without worrying about specific items, one general reality tends to ring true: If you want to get your loot sooner, play more.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Expediency [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

why would I ever got to sky to help if I earn no points and stand to get no loot?

You show up because you like that zone. No other motivation is necessary. If you don't like the content, why would you want to be coerced into spending your hobby time doing something you dislike?

Danth

[Lhancelot]

Originally Posted by Expediency [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Its pretty easy.

Say the guild pays out 5dkp an hour. Player X raids 10 times a month, he has 50 dkp. Player Y raids 20 times a month, he has 100.

Player X can either bid on loot that is typically awarded for less dkp or can bank his dkp at half the rate of player Y to get the top items.

If player Z comes in and raids 50 times a month and gets 250dkp, he obviously gets more loot.

Occasionally all guilds run across people who want something for nothing. If you're one of those people a dkp system probably isnt for you. /random really does not benefit people who have no items at that encounter and they have no incentive to show up to them.

I understand the theory here and there is some truth to it. However you are glossing over the bad aspects of your DKP system and pointing out only the good.

To keep saying there's no incentive for players to do a raid where no loot for them will drop isn't completely true. There are actually people who have other motivations besides getting loot.

Believe it or not, some people like helping others. Some people like to be in a guild that believes in building their entire guild up so the force is strong as a whole and not just the ones who have 15 hours a day where they can sit and soak up all the DKP offered by your type of raid guild.

Just because someone goes to 80% of the raids doesn't indicate how much they contribute on those raids, so the statement that "oh, well if someone is going to 80% of the raids they deserve twice as much as the guy that only goes to 40%!" This is one fault of the DKP sponge system, sponges can go and hump raid mobs every day all week, and then have tons of DKP and not contribute hardly at all to the raids.

I am just saying there are other incentives for people to take part in raids other than getting their own loots. Greed is a driving force and loot is a big incentive for many, but not all.