Best Server Community Sin--Wait, Nevermind

[Humerox]

Vesica Dei doesn't need defending here, we've all been philosophizing.

and as much as he hates to admit it, yendor's a nice guy...grouped with him on occasion on alts while he was up and coming.

silly ranga

[feste]

Originally Posted by h0tr0d (shaere) [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

One day your bronze is no longer 'uber'. Then your crafted.

my crafted will aways be uber!!!

[Darian]

Originally Posted by Phragmar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

EDIT 2-24-11: It looks to me like this thread has outlived its ability to generate meaningful conversation or rational debate, and instead descended perhaps irretrievably to the point at which the bulk of the responses are flames or insults--yes, by Vesica Dei members, among others. As much as I think the discussion itself is meaningful and timely, I fear moderating this thread in the future would demand more work than someone is willing to dedicate, so I have to recommend at this point that it be closed or moved, possibly both.

If you call a guild out for misconduct and/or your own personal opinion of what's right/wrong/unjust, that guild will respond if they know their members haven't done anything wrong.

This thread = you either understand why people aren't allowed to hold camps when they die while camping a mob, or you don't.

[Phragmar]

Originally Posted by YendorLootmonkey [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Wait, am I considered morally bankrupt because I choose to play by the rules, or because I don't choose to play by your made-up rules?

...

You ... call those of us out who don't play by your style of idealistic play?

...

But don't ... call us out by guild and names ...

...

How does that make me morally bankrupt?

...

(Edited to bypass flames, personal attacks, insults, etc., and to condense)

Here is an example of me saying you're morally bankrupt:

"YendorLootmonkey is morally bankrupt." Please direct me to where that appears in any of my previous posts. I think you're in a much better position to answer your questions about your own morality than I am. I don't really know you.

Secondly, I mentioned the guild by name and the members by name. If I understand it correctly, many of the arguments being raised by you and others are that the people who took the camp were within their rights and did nothing wrong. If this is so, they shouldn't be in jeopardy of suffering any community opprobrium from anyone. I told the story as best I recalled it. If you feel like I misstated something, the other people who were there can certainly feel free to clarify. But if the VD members were in the right, what consequence is it to them or the guild to be mentioned by name? I don't think anyone has a basis to accuse me of slander--I haven't said anything that was untrue (and if someone can point out to me that I have, let me know so I can correct it), so what exactly am I calling people out for?

But alright, I guess that's a little evasive. From my perspective, even if everyone were to immediately concede the point and we all agreed that the behavior of the VD members was wrong, I frankly don't think they can expect any meaningful retribution, and that was never the point. VD's reputation is what it is, and I'm the last person able to tell anyone conclusively whether it's good or bad. Even if my entire intent was to cause problems for the guild (and it's not--I don't know any of the members and have never had contact with any of them before this incident), I expect nothing would come of it; whether the guild as a whole are bastions of uprightness or the scum of the earth, I at least expect it to have a respectable level of solidarity. Give me a little credit here.

Darian - I expect VD members to be involved in the discussion just like anyone else; I certainly wouldn't want to deny them an opportunity to respond.

Odeseus asked me explicitly about my thought process and rationale when it comes to deciding to start this thread in the first place, and with apologies, I'm declining to go into details about every ticking gear in my head because it just doesn't matter. I think I explained my reasoning pretty thoroughly in the opening post, and I don't expect anyone else to get any benefit out of knowing every graphic detail of my thought process. Also, I can recommend some churches in the deep south if you need a background in spitting hellfire, since my anger at its worst is a far cry from that. Finally, sorry if this comes across as rude, but the questions smelled a little of trollbait.

[maegi]

Don't sweat it Phrag, most of us have seen enough to know that your original point was made, in your first post. You might not want to use words with more than three syllables though for future reference, consider the source of whom you are addressing here for fuck's sake. They all googled or assumed they knew what you meant. I know it and you know it too, so let's just laugh and concede that some good people play here and agreed with your point. Other's have the right to live their lives according to server rules without letting human compassion or caring about another person ever enter into the scenario. What is Everquest after all? A time sink to obtain cool loot and advance your experience bar. Never mind the real people that are on the other side of every toon you encounter in said MMORPG. they don't count man, it's all about YOU. You know who you are too, so stfu and go get more loot by any means necessary.

[Phragmar]

Originally Posted by maegi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Don't sweat it Phrag, most of us have seen enough to know that your original point was made, in your first post. You might not want to use words with more than three syllables though for future reference, consider the source of whom you are addressing here for fuck's sake. They all googled or assumed they knew what you meant. I know it and you know it too, so let's just laugh and concede that some good people play here and agreed with your point. Other's have the right to live their lives according to server rules without letting human compassion or caring about another person ever enter into the scenario. What is Everquest after all? A time sink to obtain cool loot and advance your experience bar. Never mind the real people that are on the other side of every toon you encounter in said MMORPG. they don't count man, it's all about YOU. You know who you are too, so stfu and go get more loot by any means necessary.

... Couldn't have said it better.

/thread

[Pico]

That's some pretty smug shit right there.

heh i'm going to teach these plebs a thing or two about mmo morals
*drags an entire guild's name through the mud over an incident that i wasn't involved in*

[Odeseus]

I want to know because as Humor has said, many of us are philosophizing. I want to know how you came to your conclusions because your entire position (and the VAST majority of this thread) is based on what you believe to be just or unjust. Many people have read the situation and have agreed with your position, others have disagreed. I find it easier to ask one specific person (whom I know has an opinion) instead of asking everyone. When I ask everyone, I rarely get an actual response.

Along those same lines, I tend to use extremes and/or colorful language that may or may not aid in my argument. But I have found that using cold, hard logic almost never results in a response. I have to liven it up a bit so someone will actually bite.

I personally would side with Yendor on this particular topic. Mainly because I believe that a wipe removes your claim to a camp. But I am not all that confident in this position, because I can see how annoying it would be from the chanters perspective. Been there all day, got back to the zone at great expense and in a relatively timely manner only to find the camp taken. But the fact remains that no one forced him to die and give up his claim to the camp, he did that himself.

I come to this because I know that AC is a competitive camp at times, so I cannot expect others NOT to take the camp while I am gone. I was also raised to own up to your mistakes and not run from them. Since the mistake would have been mine (if I had wiped), I must own that and not blame the people who by no fault of their own profited by my mistake. However, I also try to treat people as I would like to be treated, which makes my confidence in my position a bit on the shaky side.

But then again, I know that I cannot be too nice or else everyone would begin to tell me a sob story to take whatever camp I am at, simply because they know I would believe them. And finally, since I am not at all confident in my position, I would refer to the rules as a last resort to give myself some sort of guidance. The rules side with Yendor's position, but they are not the be-all-end-all. But since I was already leaning in that direction, it gives me a bit more confidence in my position.

That is how I worked through the situation (it is not hard to do). I had the advantage of time and space, which gives me a vastly different perspective. So I would like to know how you worked through it at that moment. There may be something in your explanation that will convince me of the error of my ways. Or I could see the flaw in it and point it out to you, hoping that you can see the error and change your mind. Or I could see that we will never see eye-to-eye, for whatever reason, and we can agree to disagree. In any respect, this will put the issue to bed (at least for me) and I can leave you alone, my curiosity being sated.

[Pico]

Phragmar, with each post it seems you care more about lording your supposed moral and philosophical superiority over us than you do the community's health.

[Bubbles]

Originally Posted by Phragmar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I mean honestly, if you were interested in the philisophical debate you'd

a. ) listen and consider differing viewpoints for the sake of discussion.

or

b. ) present the situation as a hypothetical to get unbiased answers.

Nah, you just tossed VD's name into the mud, and sit there and brick wall any point of view that isn't your own. It's not constructive, and if you'd spent 5 minutes on the board you'd know that no one really cares, these disputes happen all the time, and the server rules are clear on the matter.

This is a 100% troll thread and it's pretty blatently obvious.