Best Server Community Sin--Wait, Nevermind

[Doubleplus]

Originally Posted by YendorLootmonkey [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The problem is your "right thing" is completely subjective. To you, the right thing is being a doormat when it comes to camp possession.

I never once in my post said anything about being a doormat. Thank you for inserting weak argument points into other people's posts to make it easier for you to debate "their" points, though.

Originally Posted by YendorLootmonkey [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

To other people in this thread, they understand that dead men can't hold camps. Other people in this thread consider it equally douchey to expect a highly coveted loot camp handed back over to you after you wipe and someone else moves in to claim it.

I agree. Though I don't think you will find anyone who thinks the jboots are a highly coveted camp. The jboots are a "whenever you feel like it" camp. So for someone to be clearing the whole day and then you show up at the end of the day to profit from their work is contemptuous. If you wish to argue that coming in swiftly at the end to steal or gain from a anther's hard work is practical or ingenious, agreed. If you wish to argue that it is either ethical or moral as it relates to the kind treatment of another, you can't.

Originally Posted by YendorLootmonkey [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So, pray tell, how do we decide what to do where we don't get perceived as a dick? Why is one subset of peoples' opinions more correct than the other? Who decides this?

Ah but that wasn't your point. You were arguing the difference between the "right thing" and practicality. No one is going to scorn you for doing the right thing except yourself as you curse yourself for not taking advantage of the situation in your favor. Your dilemma is which to put first, a stranger or, practically favorable, yourself. If you wish to befriend this person in the long term maybe you could get some use out of them in the future if that is your concern. That is what we call planning for the future.

Thinking of the immediate gain and weighing them against possibly future benefits could appeal to you if doing the "right thing" seems like a waste of time.

Originally Posted by YendorLootmonkey [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Making Up Arbitrary Rules is just as assholish as Rules Lawyering. Who gives you the right to pick and choose what rules (I.e. the ones about camp possession) you decide everyone should ignore? Why is someone who plays by the rules a dick, and the person who decides that they have a different idea of how camp possession should be defined and calls players out for not adhering to it somehow not a dick?

Now you are veering down off into moral relativity. A mode of thought evolved from Pragmitism and what this whole discussion is really about. "What gives you the right to judge me about my actions?"

But I will clear things up for you very easily. Your actions are taken selfishly as I discussed above, with benefit towards yourself and your allies. "Are selfish actions wrong?" No. "Are they wrong if taken at the expense of others?" No, surprisingly. However, they are pointless when taken at the expense of another for no good reason. The AC can be camped whenever you feel like it, there was no reason to "reestablish" the camp for oneself at that time other then to avoid the work of clearing mobs from scratch.

This itself is a problem of education because the AC can spawn quite rapidly from SRO desert clearing or a lengthy amount of time. Erecting your camp onto of another's work when it provides no benefit even to yourself truly, but that person or party believes it will reveals the intent motivated by greed.

Originally Posted by YendorLootmonkey [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I play nice and try to help others out, but not to the point i'm a doormat and get taken advantage of. I don't think that mindset is douchey. It's fair. Everyone in my guild understands that if they wipe trying to hold a camp, they lose their claim to the camp. There's nothing douchey or non-douchey about it.

There are all kinds of circumstances like this in real life, to act on them would evoke repercussions, but since you can do so without fear of punishment from any party or person, you can argue their validity. Much like politicians and leaders can do when they have an army backing them.

Originally Posted by YendorLootmonkey [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The only thing douchey would be an expectation that one could monopolize a popular loot camp that they've wiped to and are due unlimited attempts to hold the camp, regardless of how long their CR takes while everyone waits patiently for that person to be done.

Like attempting Trakanon 10 times in a row or something? This situation is clearly not an example of that.

In closing I am not arguing in anyone's favor. Understand this. I am arguing against your (not just you, people's) justification for their actions. Anything can be justified. It is not worth carrying about grudges in video games unless it is repeat offense material. I am merely saying that your viewpoints affect the community and a large majority oriented with personal gain prioritized above user environment is headed down the same path as every other free shard and live server of every mmo ever made.

I am not angry at anyone, I enjoy these debates with philosophical roots, which is the only reason I joined in. I have no stake in the matter.

[Phragmar]

Originally Posted by h0tr0d (shaere) [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Just because someone disagrees with you, or takes a different stance then you doesn't make them a 'douchebag'. I hate that term. Some middle schooler finds out what it is and starts using it, and here we are. Actions speak louder then words, including actions here.



I agree with this, but say someone is camping say Raster for an extended period, their router burps or whatever, and they go linkdead. They log back in within minutes, as soon as their character is no longer active on their server and allows them to log in. They log back in, and you are now at the camp. Different ways different people handle it, as we see here. I would also point out there are people playing who would take advantage. They claim to 'have been there', or they gate to bank, or transfer a lore item, and come back to farm. As to the point of helping people cr in fear, and they turn around and stick it to you. One reason the rules do exist. Losing your camp can be unfortunate, but the people that arrive in the 30 seconds you are gone legitimately, are not 'douchebags'. Just as the people who lose a camp and are frustrated are not as well. there are people who use the rules to hide behind poor actions, but these rules also protect against people who act poorly. You cannot blame the OP for being disheartened, or frustrated, or the original camper. Just as you cannot blame the camp-taker(s), when no one was present. The real key is how you handle yourself after it. I didn't read in the OP that the camp-takers were the scum of the earth, my take was more he would have been the good samaritan, and wishes others would be as well. While I agree with that sentiment, he has a right to his opinion, and doesn't deserve venom for feeling this way. And the people who argue what the rules state do not deserve it either.

Would be an interesting poll, what would you do?



Player X trains Player Y. Player Y dies, and is no longer at the camp. Tough luck Player Y?

Player X has the camp. Player Z asks for help in the next room, to avoid death, or they ask for res, or cure, or something. Player X goes to help, is gone a mere matter of seconds. They arrive back at camp and Player Y claims it is now theirs.

It isn't always so cut and dry. The best rule is the golden rule. Do unto others as you would have done unto you. Treat others as you would like to be treated. That is my opinion, and all I have to say on this.

/sermon off

This is generally accurate on enough levels that I feel like chiming in to confirm. I'm not advocating that the rules should be changed or that all VD members should have ropes placed about their necks and be hanged until dead, and I don't expect any great cultural upheaval among this server community over this incident. Moreover, I certainly don't have any delusions of stirring moral conviction in those of you who have made it abundantly clear that you prefer moral bankruptcy. But for everybody else, I believe that striving toward a higher good is a worthwhile undertaking, and that means talking about it.

I've avoided using religion or a religious basis for a number of reasons, one of which is, frankly, that it's just another thing to be flamed for. Anyone who has studied Jewish or Christian theology (and probably others) doesn't need me to tell him where the analogies are in this discussion. Having said that, however, and acknowledging the impediments it brings with respect to those who for whatever reasons legitimate or otherwise will not consider any reasoning that has even the least hint of religious influence, I'll readily admit that the golden rule is powerful.

To speak more broadly, however, especially if you're someone who has some reason for disliking Jesus Christ, what ever happened to virtue? [This is a rhetorical question.] Angry as I was over the incident, and as vehemently as I would advocate that good people must contend against these kinds of things, I may have taken it for granted that everyone else had an understanding about what it is to be virtuous. I've certainly done my share of stupid, evil things. I can't pretend I've never stolen a kill in the whole time I played EQ, or trained anyone, or worked all manner of nefarious deeds in guild politics, not to mention a litany of cruelty to people in different arenas, so I don't want anyone to think that I believe I have some kind of moral high ground just because I've taken the position I have or because I feel strongly about it. I'm just another guy on the internet.

But there's a difference between right--I mean right, as in righteous, not correct--and wrong, and it's not the same difference as between legal and illegal. The whole crux of my argument is that where those distinctions overlap, as here, right must be preferred to wrong, and good preferred to evil, before any consideration of legal or illegal.

[Versus]

Originally Posted by Messianic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

lol tags:

"u poopin bro?"

As a matter of fact, yes. Yes I am.

Yeah, I squat n surf.

Best thing in this thread.

[Klyre]

Originally Posted by Phragmar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But there's a difference between right--I mean right, as in righteous, not correct--and wrong, and it's not the same difference as between legal and illegal. The whole crux of my argument is that where those distinctions overlap, as here, right must be preferred to wrong, and good preferred to evil, before any consideration of legal or illegal.

That was very nicely said, but when we are talking right and wrong or righteous or leagal, I wonder why you had to mention people by name in your OP as well as the guild they belong to. Could it not be considered wrong to have put these people through this ordeal when all you originally wanted was to know if leveling up would result in similar events? could you not have found out what you needed to know by not bringing the whole comunity down on the people who were involved?

Its done, and I don't say that you have done wrong, right or any other. Consider next time what you are really after.

[karsten]

I am baffled at the amount of text some of you people spew

[Doubleplus]

Originally Posted by karsten [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am baffled at the amount of text some of you people spew

but you play eq

[fantom]

I have never had a good experience with anyone from VD

[Jenithia]

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[Humerox]

Originally Posted by Phragmar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But there's a difference between right--I mean right, as in righteous, not correct--and wrong, and it's not the same difference as between legal and illegal. The whole crux of my argument is that where those distinctions overlap, as here, right must be preferred to wrong, and good preferred to evil, before any consideration of legal or illegal.

another thing to consider is that is "whoosh" material for the "art thou mad, brosef?" crowd.

also there is a large population here that played classic EQ nuzzling a teat, and they - in particular - are the ones that don't have the slightest clue about what classic EQ community really was.

[azeth]

Originally Posted by Humerox [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

there is a large population here that played classic EQ nuzzling a teat

i still play classic eq while teat nuzzling, can i getta hell yea