ATTN: All Raiding Guilds

[Culkasi]

Raid rules don't say its okay to drop a train as long as you warn people - raid rules say you are responsible to make sure your train doesn't destroy someone else. If you can't do that, then don't train, take your time and kill the mobs in another way. The people for whom 2 hrs / mob is unacceptable are those that want to kill 25 mobs every cycle - for the rest of us its very reasonable - heck, we'd be willing to spend an entire Sunday on 1 NToV mob. Food for thought.

[Pint]

Originally Posted by bktroost [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I actually did this. I was trained 5 Times and killed a .GoV Dragon in about an hour. I am using real data. You are hypothesizing. Where is your data?

I was there that day when you cothed your raid up to triplets and promptly trained yourselves killing everyone. Even not counting the server down time after your wipe it still took you well over an hour to kill cekenar and cekenar and the other triplets are in a pretty unique place where only 5 mobs require clearing. I'm not really just theory crafting, I've cleared into the wing multiple times to kill various dragons and pre zone in days we used to set up our raid every week at various places within the wing, its a very messy place to be and anything can go wrong as you saw with cekenar. Had that cekenar been contested we would've walked over your corpses and killed it, the triplets are essentially beefed up vindis in relation to dps output and hp totals.

[Pint]

It's probably worth acknowledging that VP trash repops in 6 minutes and tov takes 72 minutes. I also don't want to gloss over the fact that your guilds would be happy to take a few hours to kill 1 dragon and find that rewarding, it would be rewarding and fun. The problem is that the larger guilds probably wouldn't be patient enough to wait you out and additionally depending on the dragon your multi hour long pursuit puts you in the way of the other 14 potential dragons.

[Daldaen]

Originally Posted by Culkasi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Raid rules don't say its okay to drop a train as long as you warn people - raid rules say you are responsible to make sure your train doesn't destroy someone else. If you can't do that, then don't train, take your time and kill the mobs in another way. The people for whom 2 hrs / mob is unacceptable are those that want to kill 25 mobs every cycle - for the rest of us its very reasonable - heck, we'd be willing to spend an entire Sunday on 1 NToV mob. Food for thought.

No the rules state this:

Q11: What about training away trash mobs?
A: This is acceptable, but if you choose to use this tactic, you must keep in mind that you are responsible for your trains/mobs. Meaning if your trainer dies, and the mobs go wipe another guild, that’s still training. When the time comes to purposely drop the train, make sure to communicate and coordinate with any other guilds in the zone.

If your trainer dies you're responsible for the train. However if your trainer doesn't die, when it comes time to drop the train, you must clearly coordinate that with the zone. At which it is the zones responsibility to take care, however the trainer needs to be clear about where the train is an give ample warning.

Trains in ToV are typically dropped mostly beyond the north door by Awakened because of how our pull works, the counter train brings anything KoS to CoV friendlies back to its proper place in North, impacting no one unless you are sitting in the 4-way of ToV, in which case you are just sitting there to be in a direct pull path and complain about it. There is no real reason to be in the 4-way of ToV for any extended period of time.

Trains in Kael are typically dropped in the EW tunnel and have ample time to give warning to anyone running through to hang out at EW zoneline or duck away near plate house. This is something guilds competing for these targets could improve upon.

I think the issue isn't that trains are needing to be banned, they just need to be controlled better, dropped in better locations and clearly communicated to the rest of the zone when/where they will be dropped.

It is fully possible to ask/require guilds pulling Tormax for example to DA run back through their train and drop it back in KT Area to impact minimal people. Its also possible to ask ToV trainers to drop their trains beyond the north door rather than leave them in West.

This is not Karnor's Castle where a raid mob is being pulled past 2-3 very typical and often filled camps. No guilds hang out in the 4-way in ToV or in the NToV hallways. Very few guilds or groups hang out in the EW Tunnel, or KT Area lately, if they do they can easily move aside for 1-2minutes as a train comes through once every 7 days.

[Culkasi]

This is where we fundemantelly disagree - the rest of the server should not move away from anything because 2 guilds feel the need to to kill so many mobs every cycle, that they have to be done so quickly, that the only way to do it is by training.

[Daldaen]

Indeed this is definitely where our views differ.

My view is that the rest of the server should not be forced to slog through several hours of NToV clearing for every single dragon just because 3 guilds feel they want to start dungeon crawling to mobs, and petition any guild that tries to pull because they stand in the middle of the pull path.

Either way, one side wants to force the other side to conform to their play style. Why should the side stating they only want to make 1-2 attempts a week force the side who is interested in contesting every single mob every single week, and has been for months, to conforming to their play style all of a sudden?

I don't think being asked to move to the side for a total of about 2-3 minutes out of a week in Kael (in areas no one typically groups) or just not hanging out in the 4-way or NToV hallways in ToV for extended periods of time (which there is literally no reason to do) is that ridiculous to allow for a more sleek raid environment.

Thats what doesn't make sense to me.

[Pan]

I think that the disagreement is more about splitting hairs than disagreeing.

First of all, you're only quoting one aspect of the training rules. Culk is interpreting them more broadly than you.

Q1: What is considered a "raid" on Project 1999?
A: A raid is any group of players looking to engage a raid target OR any force consisting of more than one group united in a common goal. This means that three people can be considered a raid if they intend to kill Dracoliche, or 20 people clearing fear trash. Most epic NPC's are not strictly considered "raid" mobs. The exception to this is Ragefire, which is considered a 'raid target' for the purposes of qualifying a group as a raid only. For all other intents and purposes, Ragefire is treated like an Epic NPC (IE, camp/poopsock rules do not apply). Please keep in mind that because of the need to clear to a raid target, trains enacted on players in the way of your raid are considered raid violations and action could be taken against your guild as a whole, regardless of whether the victims are part of a raid. It is in your best interest to be very careful when racing for a target, especially when it involves training away mobs.


Q2: What exactly is Raid Disruption or Raid Interference?
A: Q3 and Q4 deal with what to do when this happens, but "Raid disruption" and "raid interference" are broad terms that cover a long list of things (near simultaneous FTE, training, kill-stealing, setting of AEs on other people, any violation of the posted raid rules, etc).

Q11: What about training away trash mobs?
A: This is acceptable, but if you choose to use this tactic, you must keep in mind that you are responsible for your trains/mobs. Meaning if your trainer dies, and the mobs go wipe another guild, that’s still training. When the time comes to purposely drop the train, make sure to communicate and coordinate with any other guilds in the zone.

Also note that the communication in Q11 doesn't absolve responsibility even with communication. Unless you want to twist it.

For the sake of argument, assume that Culk is right in his interpretation. And leave it at that for a second.

On some level, for this thread, his "rightness" becomes irrelevant because we've all been called to this summit tomorrow to revisit and revamp the raid rules. And this thread seems to be the right venue to discuss changes and clarifications in advance.

I don't blame you guys for advocating for training in ToV. It's a mess mechanically there and it's in your best interest to try to change the raid rules to allow it.

Culk (and I and others) may fundamentally disagree with the approach as the rules read currently. And to say that we don't have a dog in the fight is short sighted. To wit, the way the rules read has prevented CSG from competing for targets like KT in Kael because it's impossible to do KT any other way given how fast he's pulled. And we were unwilling to train the rest of the zone, so that target is off the table for us. (And before you start telling me that stuff always goes to EW, that's patently untrue. We've eaten plenty of backwash at various times from both KT and Statue pulls - including raid wipes - since Velious release. Moreover, you (nor I) just cannot control who zones into EW and when, so therefore you run on a risk/reward basis (i.e. chances are low that people will be zoning in to Kael during - so therefore your risk of violating the training rule supersedes the potential reward from KT - and it's a risk you're willing to take) whereas CSG has chosen not to engage in that math but, instead, pass on that target because we're unwilling to assume the risk of willfully breaking the rules out of principle to compete on KT like you guys do.) And that's not insignificant nor unimportant.

But that doesn't mean it's not something that you should bring to the table tomorrow. Nor does it mean that this isn't the right place to make a case in advance. Nor does it mean that the rules might not need to be changed with zone mechanics in mind.

That said, amending the rules to allow/encourage training with impunity and/or without consequence might not be the only or best solution. There could be something a whole lot more elegant - or a whole lot more inconvenient that shakes out of this mess. And apparently we all have a voice in it.

Whatever does happen, though, we'll all need to adapt to whatever comes of it.

--------------------------

In a VERY unrelated side note, I think we should all press Sirken early on to see if there's any hope of getting code amended. We know that is something he cannot do personally, but only suggest. If we can determine that's off (or on) the table from the very beginning, that will save (or cause) a lot of noise and keep the discussion better focused on what we actually have to work with in making the raid scene better and saner across the board.

[Pint]

I think you're avoiding the guys issue daldaen. Both of our guilds train into north and drop them when they are in north by design. He is saying that his guild should have the right to be in the north wing and not get over run by our trains and he is correct. If they want to be in north and not get trained that is reasonable but the current raid rules prohibit you from being in the vicinity of a raid mob prior to its spawn so there isn't really a way for them to pre position in north and still be eligible for the dragon that spawns. If they try to.mobilize and get in there before we pull it might be acceptable but currently since a pull happens within 12 seconds of a spawn that doesn't seem feasible.

[Pint]

I dont think I'm buying that csg wont do tormax bc they think the training is wrong, I think the reality is that you dont trust your people to be able to control or contain the chaos that comes with these high intensity situations. If we were race clearing to tormax instead of train pulling then you would be in the same situation where you dont fully trust your pull team not to train yourselves or your opponents while trying to speed clear and split to tormax. If you've got enough competent people then these strategies are not as unwieldy as people make them out to be, consider the number of targets killed over the past few months to the number of raid suspensions given out.

[Culkasi]

Originally Posted by Pint [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I dont think I'm buying that csg wont do tormax bc they think the training is wrong, I think the reality is that you dont trust your people to be able to control or contain the chaos that comes with these high intensity situations. If we were race clearing to tormax instead of train pulling then you would be in the same situation where you dont fully trust your pull team not to train yourselves or your opponents while trying to speed clear and split to tormax. If you've got enough competent people then these strategies are not as unwieldy as people make them out to be, consider the number of targets killed over the past few months to the number of raid suspensions given out.

Then you don't know us very well - that is 100% the only reason we haven't attempted King Tormax. If we were afraid we couldn't do it, we would try, see were we failed, go away and improve, and come back, like we have on every other single encounter we've progressed through.