Big Thanks to Cloki from Omni

[Mead]

Originally Posted by Detoxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Lol blame FAT even thought Rampage is the ones that tried the last 2 ring wars and we havent touched it, then BDA is grandstanding in here and decides to go for said exploited dains.

Good logic

Am I just not getting something correctly here or are you just using words to make it seem like something is being exploited? Isn't the current Ring War more difficult than it should be because of how bugged it is?

[Vianna]

Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I just don't understand why you are so anxious to crucify the guy as some sort of master of deception when his memory wasn't really that far off.

Who is crucifying ? Just fact checking. I even said Cloki might be a cool guy, but that he was straight lying about the ring war and ~40 people doing it in Velious. He just seems to have an agenda in this situation from what I have read and he lied to prove a point. I was on Druzzil Ro btw. It's why it upset me a little more than it should have I guess.

[ArumTP]

Originally Posted by Mead [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Am I just not getting something correctly here or are you just using words to make it seem like something is being exploited? Isn't the current Ring War more difficult than it should be because of how bugged it is?

Current form of ring war is very hard and has yet to be beaten, it provides the last challenge to be had on this server. It is perhaps an overtuned encounter currently, but is still believed to be beatable by FAT/Rapinity alliances.

The bug occurs after the encounter is lost, it causes a repop of dain 2 hours later after the ring war failure.

It is BDA's stance since the ring war is unbeatable by them, so it should not be triggered nor should the dain be attempted to be killed. This however has not stopped them from attempting to kill that bugged dain 2 out of the last 4 dains spawned in this manner.

Omni holds similar view, however has made no attempts to kill dain.

Guilds that have killed this dain hold the stance that 2 warlords must be killed (which represents and is a legitimate attempt to complete the ring war) to earn that dain that spawned uncontested. Failure to do so results in dain being FFA.

BDA and Omni expect the dain to be left up and not killed by any guild that attempted the ring war and failed. Presumably so that they get the dain uncontested, as they have no apparent intentions to even try a ring war at this time.

[arsenalpow]

Originally Posted by ArumTP [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Current form of ring war is very hard and has yet to be beaten, it provides the last challenge to be had on this server. It is perhaps an overtuned encounter currently, but is still believed to be beatable by FAT/Rapinity alliances.

The bug occurs after the encounter is lost, it causes a repop of dain 2 hours later after the ring war failure.

It is BDA's stance since the ring war is unbeatable by them, so it should not be triggered nor should the dain be attempted to be killed. This however has not stopped them from attempting to kill that bugged dain 2 out of the last 4 dains spawned in this manner.

Omni holds similar view, however has made no attempts to kill dain.

Guilds that have killed this dain hold the stance that 2 warlords must be killed (which represents and is a legitimate attempt to complete the ring war) to earn that dain that spawned uncontested. Failure to do so results in dain being FFA.

BDA and Omni expect the dain to be left up and not killed by any guild that attempted the ring war and failed. Presumably so that they get the dain uncontested, as they have no apparent intentions to even try a ring war at this time.

Please don't twist my views. My thoughts are that since the ring war is fundamentally unwinnable (and that means unwinnable by everyone, not just BDA) that guilds shouldn't be triggering ring wars period until the encounter is properly tuned.

[Daldaen]

Failure to kill 2 Warlords, making the Dain FFA, still makes it a completely cluster, desynch fest. So you could still fail it on purpose and get a shot at an FFA Dain, which is retarded under the current suggestion.

Guilds spawning the war need to not go after the Dain to provide 0 incentive to purposefully failing a war. Also to reduce the amount of competing guilds on the resulting Dain, reducing the chance of a cluster/desynch.

Again, Chest, suggesting an overtuned event not be engaged because you believe it to be unwinnable is equally retarded. Just because you don't think it can be won does not mean everyone should stop doing it. The only thing that should stop is guilds triggering the war and going after the resulting Dain if you failed.

A very simple agreement that could be made if the Raid Discussion forum had active leadership from each guild rather than a relic that hasn't had permissions adjusted in over a year.

[Nibblewitz]

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[Prismaticshop]

Off with the BDA thundercunts, take this to RnF!

[Pan]

Arum, don't presume to speak for Omni.

We were the first to try the ringwar on this server (with our allies and other people who showed up to help). It was buggy as hell.

We're very interested in trying it again when the third wave can be checked and held with melee aggro - as it should be. (Assuming that the giants/corpses/summoned under the world are either fixed or accounted for by an on-site GM).

We are not interested in picking of a Dain that shouldn't be spawning. And that's the genesis and nexus of my posts in the raid forum.

All tuning mechanics aside, that Dain puts the raid guilds on the server in an untenable situation. Specifically:

They have asked us not to exploit bugs.
They have called the failed-war Dain a bug. (Which, by definition, would make killing him an exploit.)
Upon spawning, this buggy Dain precludes a legitimate Dain from spawning.
Some raid guilds have chosen to kill the buggy Dain (leaving out all arguments or intent-to-spawn here intentionally).

The upshot of this is that those guilds who choose to kill the buggy Dain are at risk of sanction by the staff. And historically on this server, in my opinion, the rules are enforced fairly inconsistently. That, to me, means that it's not implausible for someone on the staff to wake up, realize that something that they've called a bug is being exploited (for whatever reasons - justifyable or not), and then issue bans/suspensions/dissoulutions/whatever the caprice of the moment dictates. It's entirely possible that could happen. And a defensible argument could be made for it.

The situation is both untenable and needless. A simple word...or serial DTs and resets...from the staff is all it would take to put this matter to rest. As it stands, those who choose not to compete for that Dain are losing opportunities - while those who do are assuming a rather hefty but absolutely unknown risk. And there's no reason for it.

[ArumTP]

Originally Posted by Pan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We are not interested in picking of a Dain that shouldn't be spawning. And that's the genesis and nexus of my posts in the raid forum.

In the absence of GM intervention it is up to the players to resolve issues.

Guilds came up with a working solution to deal with dains spawning after a failed ring war. The solution was to reduce the mess of people training wiping lagging mess trying for a dain and to prevent guilds from purposely failing a ring war.

Your guild chooses to not participate in any killing of dain or attempting any ring war. You clearly don't want anything to do with it. Why bother posting? The purpose of the post was how to come up with workable solutions for guilds wanting dains/ringwars. Not guilds proselytizing about content they don't do.

[Pan]

All raiding guilds want Dains and ring wars. Some guilds don't want buggy Dains. That point is perfectly germane to the conversation.

Just because I think the war isn't worth trying again until the 3rd wave is check-able doesn't mean I want to prevent others from trying it.

I agree that players should resolve issues - absent GM intervention or not.

What I take issue with here is that I don't think that players getting together to determine the most convenient, workable (least laggy) way to kill a target that spawns because of a recognized bug falls into that category. This isn't an issue that players need to resolve. This one is on the staff. A single sentence: it's okay to kill that buggy Dain and you're welcome to figure out something workable.

I bother posting because we're interested in Dain. I bother posting because I want to point out, loudly, that I don't think that this issue is one for the players to determine. We've been given our orders: don't kill buggy shit.

I bother posting because I want the staff to stand behind what they've asked us to do - or ask us to do something that requires no intervention from them at all. I bother posting because I think that this is a larger issue than a buggy Dain. I don't like the caprice of the Sword of Damocles set up by this situation for some - and I don't like the opportunity cost that the other side incurs.