Blade of Carnage drop on beta

[koros]

Originally Posted by Treats [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

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They absolutely zerged him.

They couldn't tank Avatar of War with NToV shit and didn't UNTIL RIGHT BEFORE THE NEXT FUCKING EXPANSION.

It boggles my mind how some of you think he could be killable in BiS Kunark gear.

They were probably just bads that had no clue what they were doing I guess.

What exactly are you trying to show with those links? Because you seem to be arguing against your own point. Those are from july 2001. During which time, Legacy of Steel had absolutely 0 NToV loot, and they still got AoW that low. You guys can poke holes in our "theorycrafting" all you want, but math is math and eq is a game of basic math and statistics. Especially on a mob that attacks one target every 1.8 (is that right here?) seconds for less than their max hitpoints.

[Ele]

Originally Posted by koros [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What exactly are you trying to show with those links? Because you seem to be arguing against your own point. Those are from july 2001. During which time, Legacy of Steel had absolutely 0 NToV loot, and they still got AoW that low. You guys can poke holes in our "theorycrafting" all you want, but math is math and eq is a game of basic math and statistics. Especially on a mob that attacks one target every 1.8 (is that right here?) seconds for less than their max hitpoints.

LoS had been farming Sleeper's for over a month by July 2001 and pioneered the Dozekar tear quests earlier than that. They had been killing vindi/statue/tormax/dain for months.

For the July 27 kill: The Avatar of War proved to be no match for the joint forces of Shock of Swords and Legacy of Steel in an epic battle that lasted for over 30 minutes.

The attempt they had 2 weeks earlier, they had a joint raid with Shock of Swords and Paragons of Fury.

[Raev]

Originally Posted by koros [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Especially on a mob that attacks one target every 1.8 (is that right here?) seconds for less than their max hitpoints.

His cooldown is just over 1 second here.

[Fri Mar 06 22:39:21 2015] The Avatar of War hits Detoxx for 704 points of damage.
[Fri Mar 06 22:39:21 2015] The Avatar of War hits Detoxx for 372 points of damage.
[Fri Mar 06 22:39:21 2015] The Avatar of War tries to hit Detoxx, but misses!
[Fri Mar 06 22:39:21 2015] The Avatar of War hits Detoxx for 704 points of damage.
[Fri Mar 06 22:39:21 2015] The Avatar of War executes a FLURRY of attacks on Detoxx!
---
[Fri Mar 06 22:39:22 2015] The Avatar of War hits Detoxx for 704 points of damage.
[Fri Mar 06 22:39:22 2015] The Avatar of War tries to hit Detoxx, but misses!
[Fri Mar 06 22:39:22 2015] The Avatar of War tries to hit Detoxx, but misses!
[Fri Mar 06 22:39:22 2015] The Avatar of War hits Detoxx for 704 points of damage.
[Fri Mar 06 22:39:22 2015] The Avatar of War hits Detoxx for 325 points of damage.
[Fri Mar 06 22:39:22 2015] The Avatar of War hits Detoxx for 704 points of damage.
[Fri Mar 06 22:39:22 2015] The Avatar of War executes a FLURRY of attacks on Detoxx!
---
[Fri Mar 06 22:39:23 2015] The Avatar of War tries to hit Detoxx, but misses!
[Fri Mar 06 22:39:23 2015] The Avatar of War tries to hit Detoxx, but misses!
[Fri Mar 06 22:39:23 2015] The Avatar of War tries to hit Detoxx, but misses!
---
[Fri Mar 06 22:39:24 2015] The Avatar of War hits Detoxx for 704 points of damage.

So yeah, he's overtuned [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Just like the resist system is ridiculously overtuned right now (we should be resisting way more than 20% of Sontalak's fire AE and 50% of his fears with max FR/MR) but I like it that way for a bit more challenge. I just get irritated at people who bring up these vague classic memories and act like those should be some sort of proof standard.

Lets also not forget class composition here is way better than on Live. We don't have raids full of Pal/Dru/Sk etc.

[Nirgon]

Need to post parses or stfu at this point

I'll dump what I got tonite

But this prob needs a dev pal to get a good long parse

Anyone got a lvl 60 warrior in abouts full Kael armor on live or on test? I can ask the faceless order pals for logs if maybe they got some from eqlive test with in era gear.

[Treats]

Originally Posted by koros [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What exactly are you trying to show with those links? Because you seem to be arguing against your own point. Those are from july 2001. During which time, Legacy of Steel had absolutely 0 NToV loot, and they still got AoW that low. You guys can poke holes in our "theorycrafting" all you want, but math is math and eq is a game of basic math and statistics. Especially on a mob that attacks one target every 1.8 (is that right here?) seconds for less than their max hitpoints.

How am I arguing against my own point, they were attempting and zerging him using Frozen Jesus.

His Atk Delay should be 1600 or 1700ms.

Sure, you can say EQ is a game of basic math and statistics. How many times then in a 30-60 minute fight do you think Avatar of War is going to max quad/flurry/bash/kick a tank for at or just below his maximum HP and kill him? How many times is a cleric going to be half a second late or half a second early on Complete Heal?

You're giving EQ mobs way too much credit. And the AoW kill on beta people were getting AOE rezzed, it DID rek the tanks. It was a wipe by all means. If 140 epic'd people cant zerge it in the unthinkable gear they had, you cannot sit here and say its undertuned. His max hits are well known, his HP is known, after that it is a mana and numbers game.

Those values that are known don't mean much. ATK and AC of the NPC determine mana efficiency, how many errors you can afford to make healing, and the length of the fight.

The server has always been backwards in terms of difficulty. The game is tuned from easy to hard when it should be the other way around. I don't blame the devs at all though, its a very difficult task when some the main components of what made the formulas work on live are unknown.

This is what I would start with:

Increase all notable NPCs ATK
Most hits would be for (DI-2) non Defensive and (DI-1) Defensive on a max Kunark AC value
(DI-x) would raise x as AC is increased from BiS Velious gear
Avoidance lowered depending on NPC/PC level difference

Increase all notable NPCs AC
DPS reduction of somewhere between 25% to 40% without Avatar
15% to 30% with Avatar

[Raev]

Originally Posted by Treats [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

His Atk Delay should be 1600 or 1700ms.

It is ~1100ms here right now.

[koros]

I'm getting annoyed with this completely arbitrary analysis on both sides of the argument, so let's do some math with a log that was posted from early 2002. Shortened to only include AoW swings. It never flurries, so it was almost certainly crippled by this point in the fight. I separated what seems like "swing" rounds, this almost perfectly works between seconds. Only once did I group swings from one second with another, and that was because at :49 it only swung twice, and at :50 it swung once, and then again three times at :51. Instead of getting 3 shitty rounds in a super small period I assume it was a server timing issue as :49 rolled to :50 so I grouped that together.

Posting this now and doing a bit more in depth analysis when I get time.

29 misses, 67 hits from swings. We can pretty safely assume around a 70% hit rate.

19:50:22 to 19:51:09 = 47 seconds, and 96 swings = 2.04 swings per second

Most swings in any one second: 5
Most damage in any one round: 2439
Number of attack rounds: 28
Average number of swings per round: 3.4
Estimated delay from this: Almost exactly 1.5

[Mon Mar 18 19:50:21 2002, Rexxor assumes a defensive fighting style.

[Mon Mar 18 19:50:22 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to slash YOU, but misses!"
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:22 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to slash YOU, but YOUR magical skin absorbs the blow!"
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:22 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to slash YOU, but YOU riposte!"

[Mon Mar 18 19:50:22 2002, The*Avatar*of War bashes YOU for 236 points of damage.

[Mon Mar 18 19:50:23 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to slash YOU, but YOU parry!"
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:23 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 614 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:23 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 704 points of damage.

[Mon Mar 18 19:50:25 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 614 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:25 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 704 points of damage.

[Mon Mar 18 19:50:27 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to slash YOU, but misses!"
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:27 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to slash YOU, but YOU dodge!"
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:27 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 704 points of damage.

[Mon Mar 18 19:50:29 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to slash YOU, but misses!"
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:29 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 389 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:29 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 276 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:29 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to slash YOU, but YOU parry!"
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:29 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to slash YOU, but YOU dodge!"

[Mon Mar 18 19:50:30 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to bash YOU, but misses!"

[Mon Mar 18 19:50:30 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to slash YOU, but YOU riposte!"
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:30 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 704 points of damage.

[Mon Mar 18 19:50:32 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 276 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:32 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to slash YOU, but misses!"
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:32 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to slash YOU, but misses!"
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:32 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 704 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:32 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 704 points of damage.

[Mon Mar 18 19:50:34 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to slash YOU, but YOU parry!"
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:34 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 344 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:34 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to slash YOU, but misses!"
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:34 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 681 points of damage.

[Mon Mar 18 19:50:36 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 704 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:36 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 591 points of damage.

[Mon Mar 18 19:50:37 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 524 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:37 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 704 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:37 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 434 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:37 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 659 points of damage.

[Mon Mar 18 19:50:38 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to bash YOU, but misses!"

[Mon Mar 18 19:50:39 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 636 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:39 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to slash YOU, but YOU parry!"
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:39 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 704 points of damage.

[Mon Mar 18 19:50:41 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 591 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:41 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to slash YOU, but YOU riposte!"
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:41 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 704 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:41 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 546 points of damage.

[Mon Mar 18 19:50:42 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to slash YOU, but misses!"
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:42 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 704 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:42 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to slash YOU, but misses!"
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:42 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 501 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:42 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 704 points of damage.

[Mon Mar 18 19:50:44 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 276 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:44 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to slash YOU, but YOU dodge!"
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:44 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 704 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:44 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 276 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:44 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 659 points of damage.

[Mon Mar 18 19:50:46 2002, The*Avatar*of War bashes YOU for 259 points of damage.

[Mon Mar 18 19:50:46 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 389 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:46 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 659 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:46 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 704 points of damage.

[Mon Mar 18 19:50:48 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to slash YOU, but YOU dodge!"
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:48 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to slash YOU, but YOU riposte!"
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:48 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 704 points of damage.

[Mon Mar 18 19:50:49 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 276 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:49 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to slash YOU, but YOU parry!"
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:50 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 321 points of damage.

[Mon Mar 18 19:50:51 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 704 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:51 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 299 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:51 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to slash YOU, but YOU parry!"

[Mon Mar 18 19:50:53 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 704 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:53 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to slash YOU, but YOU riposte!"

[Mon Mar 18 19:50:54 2002, The*Avatar*of War kicks YOU for 255 points of damage.

[Mon Mar 18 19:50:55 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 4 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:55 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to slash YOU, but misses!"
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:55 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 434 points of damage.

[Mon Mar 18 19:50:57 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 704 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:57 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 704 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:57 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to slash YOU, but misses!"
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:57 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 704 points of damage.

[Mon Mar 18 19:50:58 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 704 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:58 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 434 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:58 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to slash YOU, but YOU riposte!"
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:58 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 366 points of damage.

[Mon Mar 18 19:51:00 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 524 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:51:00 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 434 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:51:00 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 456 points of damage.

[Mon Mar 18 19:51:02 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 704 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:51:02 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 321 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:51:02 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 299 points of damage.

[Mon Mar 18 19:51:02 2002, The*Avatar*of War bashes YOU for 259 points of damage.

[Mon Mar 18 19:51:04 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 569 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:51:04 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 276 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:51:04 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 276 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:51:04 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 614 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:51:04 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 704 points of damage.

[Mon Mar 18 19:51:05 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 704 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:51:05 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to slash YOU, but misses!"
[Mon Mar 18 19:51:05 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 546 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:51:05 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 591 points of damage.

[Mon Mar 18 19:51:08 2002," The*Avatar*of War tries to slash YOU, but misses!"
[Mon Mar 18 19:51:08 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 501 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:51:08 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 614 points of damage.

[Mon Mar 18 19:51:09 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 411 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:51:09 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 366 points of damage.
[Mon Mar 18 19:51:09 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 636 points of damage.

[Mon Mar 18 19:51:09 2002, You have been slain by The*Avatar*of War!
[Mon Mar 18 19:51:11 2002," Returning to home point, please wait..."
[Mon Mar 18 19:51:12 2002," LOADING, PLEASE WAIT..."

[koros]

You'll notice there's a hit for 4. It's from rune. I'll try to remove any hits that aren't possible without a rune when I do a median/mean DI analysis.

[Mon Mar 18 19:50:55 2002, The shimmer of runes fades.
[Mon Mar 18 19:50:55 2002, The*Avatar*of War slashes YOU for 4 points of damage.

So for all the hits, I parsed out just the number. Then I subtracted 254 and divided by 45. If the result wasn't a whole number 1-10 I threw it out. This left 43 hits, 24 of which were DI 10, 3 of which were DI 9, 4 of which were DI 8.

~56% of the time was max
~72% of the time was 8-10 on the DI.

Pretty high hits... but I hope you see where I'm going with this. The odds of a max round ever are almost 0. I'm just going to run the numbers for 5 hits, since that's all I saw, getting 8 max would be even more rare.

Chance of a max hit(.56^5) * Chance of hitting (.7^5)* Chance of a 5 swings (max in the log I had) round(.17)=0.0015% chance of max round per swing

If we raise those powers to the 7th or 8th power, it gets stupidly small. I rest my fucking case.

[Treats]

Originally Posted by koros [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Stuff

Faz you were tanking him in that shiny new Cobalt Breastplate amirite?!

[koros]

Originally Posted by Treats [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Faz you were tanking him in that shiny new Cobalt Breastplate amirite?!

I'm sure the 14 ac difference between that and warlords is going to drastically shift the distrubution curve. Way to dismiss my thorough analysis with bullshit. You're smarter than that. This is about figuring out how strong the thing actually was. What exactly do you take issue with?