Isn't there a better way to distribute raid loot? If not which is most fair?

[Orruar]

Originally Posted by erog84 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Been a member/officer/leader in plenty of guilds on eq and wow with loot council, and it has never been innocent of favoritism in some form or another. Someone can preach that it's fair all they want, but I ain't buying it. DKP seems the closest to a fair system (its not perfect).

DKP systems have built-in favoritism in one form or another. If you have a rule that says you are ineligible for loot if you haven't raided in X days/weeks/months, you are playing favorites for current raiders. Hell, the whole idea of DKP is to play favorites for those who accrue the most DKP (whoever that happens to be). I've never seen a DKP system that didn't have a ton of small rules and addendums that were meant to prevent unfortunate loot distribution. Each of these is a form of favoritism.

I've always seen the most loot strife in DKP-based guilds. People would constantly bicker over DKP rules and regulations in order to adjust the rules to favor themselves. In contrast, the loot council guilds I've been in have been relatively fair. There will always been questioned loot calls, but as long as the officers can give some reasoning and you have trust in them, it's all good. And if you don't have trust in the leadership of your guild, why the hell are you there in the first place? And certainly the most fucked up loot calls I've seen have taken place in a DKP-based guild.

[maskedmelon]

Originally Posted by Orruar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If your relative values for each of those rewards/pixels is not subjective, they must be objective. Usually it's somewhat difficult to prove a negative. In this case, I'm giving you the easiest test possible. Show how you objectively arrived at those numbers, without subjective value entering into the mix. I have several more ways to show that set of "rules" is subjective, but this is the simplest.

I'm sorry, I wasn't very clear in what I was asking. As I already stated, the values are irrelevant. They don't matter. You can change them to whatever you like and the outcome will remain unbiased for the individual. Here's how it works:

Every player earns .5dkp for every event they arrive to on time.
Every player earns 1 dkp for every hour spent at every raid.
Every player earns 2 dkp for every mob killed.

No outcomes vary, ever. The outcome will be the same for every person who participates in the same way. There is no special consideration and therefore no bias. If a player has to work late and cannot attend they do not receive special consideration. If a player is unemployed and has all day to play, neither do they receive special consideration. If a player invokes the wrath of another household member and must leave the raid early, neither do they receive special consideration. Does that make sense? I am not sure how else to explain it.

I think it would be more helpful if you tried to explain why you believe it to be biased. What about the system do you feel is biased? If it is just the numbers, that doesn't make sense because they are irrelevant. As I said you can change them to whatever you like. We can explore that though if that is where you are hung up. What about the numbers do you feel is biased?

[Orruar]

Originally Posted by maskedmelon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You can change them to whatever you like

That's the definition of subjectivity right there. If the rules are subjectively created, then the outcomes determined by those rules are just as subjective. I was trying to make that point to you with my previous rule of "People named Orruar get all the loot". I didn't realize I hadn't been clear enough.

[maskedmelon]

Originally Posted by Orruar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That's the definition of subjectivity right there. If the rules are subjectively created, then the outcomes determined by those rules are just as subjective. I was trying to make that point to you with my previous rule of "People named Orruar get all the loot". I didn't realize I hadn't been clear enough.

Unfortunately that is not correct :/ You are getting hung up on the values when they are irrelevant to the system. The system is what we are discussing Orruar and its structure is simple:

do x, get y

There is nothing biased about it. There is in fact no room for bias. All who do x will always get y, no matter what. There is no consideration for anything, but the single parameter x as a condition for y. Where is the bias? Help me help you lol ^^

[maskedmelon]

Originally Posted by Orruar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I was trying to make that point to you with my previous rule of "People named Orruar get all the loot". I didn't realize I hadn't been clear enough.

No need to be snide ^^ I forgot to address this piece in my last post and I missed it the first time wherever you posted it, so sorry for that. You actually make a good point with this, though it is not what you intended. You illustratethe importance of parameters that are open to all, which supports the notion of dkp fairness. The parameter above is exclusionary. Basic dkp parameters are not (refer to my last post).

[Orruar]

Originally Posted by maskedmelon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

do x, get y

There is nothing biased about it.

You are either inexperienced with DKP or incredibly naive, or both. Any DKP system has dozens, if not hundreds of rules. The rules are set in place in a subjective manner, leading to a subjective system. The rule lawyering that takes place under a DKP system is only eclipsed by patent trolls and P99 raid lawyers.

Even with your simple system of rules, which is orders of magnitude smaller than any working DKP system out there, you have already placed subjective value on being on time and for killing mobs. And if you had to actually run a guild, you would suddenly realize it is preferable to add several dozen more rules ranging from ways in which DKP can be earned (tracking is important) to how it can be spent (alts vs mains, app loots, long vacations, etc.) And each time you add a rule, it's a subjective call to do so. DKP is no more objective than loot council.

Anyway, this seems to all come down to your definition of subjective. If you're still convinced DKP is not subjective, then you must agree that an "Orruar gets all loot" is not subjective. And if that's the case, you're making the argument that DKP is as good as system as "Orruar gets all loot".

[TrendyDru]

Originally Posted by Kreylyn [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

run pugs, declare your loot policy up front.

That's the only loot distro your gonna see that's "fair" and gets you your desired goal.

Krey

I tried this and I got flamed into oblivion. I'm sure some ForumQuester has it bookmarked but I'm not going to give the link. For fear of thread derailment.

Inb4 iruined posts it.

[Orruar]

Originally Posted by maskedmelon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No need to be snide ^^ I forgot to address this piece in my last post and I missed it the first time wherever you posted it, so sorry for that. You actually make a good point with this, though it is not what you intended. You illustratethe importance of parameters that are open to all, which supports the notion of dkp fairness. The parameter above is exclusionary. Basic dkp parameters are not (refer to my last post).

Fine, then how about a loot system where it's alphabetical starting with the name of the item. So if you get Mrylokar's greaves, then someone named Mrzman would probably win. Sounds pretty awesome, ya?

Anyway, here's the crux of the argument, which you aren't understanding. There's already subjective assessment inserted into the equation when you decide that DKP points should be acquired via attendance. What if I think it would be more fair to be a combination of attendance and contribution. That 3rd ranger who just died within 3 seconds of engage because he pulled agro perhaps does not deserve the same as the rogue who did half the mob's hp in damage. What if I think it would be more fair to give people who contribute to the guild outside of raids by helping farm key pieces or soulfires? How about people who put in time tracking mobs?

There are a plethora of subjective assessments to make when coming up with a set of loot rules. The rules then obfuscate this subjectivity and cloak it in a veil of legitimacy. Simpleminded people see a set of rules and think it must mean the system is fair. This makes DKP at a higher risk of abuse. At least with loot council, the members know they need to hold their leadership accountable for loot distribution. With DKP, those with power can set the rules in such a way as to guarantee a lootfest for themselves.

[Cecily]

Originally Posted by TrendyDru [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I tried this and I got flamed into oblivion. I'm sure some ForumQuester has it bookmarked but I'm not going to give the link. For fear of thread derailment.

Inb4 iruined posts it.

Ha that thread was great. Come farm spells with me. I'm calling dibs on Torpor.

[TrendyDru]

Originally Posted by Cecily [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Ha that thread was great. Come farm spells with me. I'm calling dibs on Torpor.

Dibs is a legitimate opening line. Which holds up in a court of law.

"Your honor, my client clearly called dibs."