It'll never be C/R

[Magnar]

Originally Posted by HeallunRumblebelly [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Because if all we are doing is cake walking in circles for loot the game really loses purpose. At least in kunark. A full rotation on blue99 is about the best red99 recruitment tool there could ever be.

It really isn't. Maybe for the immature kiddies it is, but the server is better without them, anyway. I keep hearing all these stories about the raid scene on servers like Solusek Ro or Xegony and I just think to myself wow, I wasn't aware 8 year olds were allowed online back then. I can log onto my server right now, and the guilds who set up the rotation system back in '99 are STILL PLAYING with most of the same members. Tell me again how the game loses purpose?

[HeallunRumblebelly]

I still visit chat rooms sometimes too magnar. But when I want to play games I'd like a little bit of challenge at least.

[Frieza_Prexus]

Originally Posted by Magnar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It really isn't. Maybe for the immature kiddies it is, but the server is better without them, anyway. I keep hearing all these stories about the raid scene on servers like Solusek Ro or Xegony and I just think to myself wow, I wasn't aware 8 year olds were allowed online back then. I can log onto my server right now, and the guilds who set up the rotation system back in '99 are STILL PLAYING with most of the same members. Tell me again how the game loses purpose?

Both the hardcore cutthroat and the cooperative play styles existed on live, but the former was far more prevalent. This server's purpose is determined solely by The Vision™ as laid out by its owners. There is no right, wrong, or better way to play on or govern the server if it does not further that purpose.

Certainly, we may suggest better ways to accomplish certain goals and attract or retain a certain type of player, but we cannot speak in terms of "should" or "ought" if it does not further the developer's vision. It just so happens that the owners of this server have decided to cater more strongly to the hardcore while also assuring cooperative players that they will not be disregarded, despite being less favored.

[Magnar]

Originally Posted by Frieza_Prexus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Both the hardcore cutthroat and the cooperative play styles existed on live, but the former was far more prevalent. This server's purpose is determined solely by The Vision™ as laid out by its owners. There is no right, wrong, or better way to play on or govern the server if it does not further that purpose.

Certainly, we may suggest better ways to accomplish certain goals and attract or retain a certain type of player, but we cannot speak in terms of "should" or "ought" if it does not further the developer's vision. It just so happens that the owners of this server have decided to cater more strongly to the hardcore while also assuring cooperative players that they will not be disregarded, despite being less favored.

But there's nothing hardcore about having half your raid camped out ready to engage a mob in its spawn zone. Zerg rushing things isn't hardcore. Cooperative players are being totally disregarded. What guild on the server can even attempt to compete with the IB/TMO pixel jerk in Velious? None.

The only reason the former was more prevalent is because immature asshats are more prevalent than people willing to throw a hand to someone for the sake of helping them out and expecting nothing in return. It actually takes effort to not be a piece of shit, it's real easy to just walk all over people, only caring about yourself. That's what the raid scene on P99 is.

Whether or not the developers have a 'vision' of what they want raiding to be is irrelevant. The current rules are in place because guilds couldn't cooperate on their own. If TMO, IB, Taken, and whoever else all got together and said 'Look, lets all just grow the fuck up and sort this out', what are the GMs gonna do? Ban everyone for not constantly bickering like children? Of course not. Rogean, Nilbog, Sirken, and the rest of the staff probably sit in the GM chat saying to each other 'I really wish these idiots would just sort this shit out for themselves so we can stop having to waste time on it'.

I guarantee you Velious would have launched by now if they didn't need to constantly keep diverting their attention to raid issues. Kunark would have been launched sooner, too. They aren't going to punish people for creating a rotation or some other cooperative system on their own, they ARE going to punish people for constantly fucking each other other and breaking game rules and causing them more unnecessary stress.

[Juryiel]

Originally Posted by Frieza_Prexus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Both the hardcore cutthroat and the cooperative play styles existed on live, but the former was far more prevalent. This server's purpose is determined solely by The Vision™ as laid out by its owners. There is no right, wrong, or better way to play on or govern the server if it does not further that purpose.

Certainly, we may suggest better ways to accomplish certain goals and attract or retain a certain type of player, but we cannot speak in terms of "should" or "ought" if it does not further the developer's vision. It just so happens that the owners of this server have decided to cater more strongly to the hardcore while also assuring cooperative players that they will not be disregarded, despite being less favored.

This mostly makes sense but you can't just put this on the server staff. E.g. if the staff made a purely FFA environment, would people then agree to rules that avoid things like batphones / tracking / socking? I bet most would, but the few that don't would make it not work out since you need everyone to cooperate. Honestly the way I see it is an inability for the two groups to come to a mutual understanding, and then the server staff stepping in to enforce their own preferences, rather than the staff being the primary reason we have what we have.

In servers like mine on live we still had more hardcore and less hardcore raid guilds. The hardcore guilds got a ton more stuff even with rotations, because it took a while for the casuals to be able to kill those same things (often times several expansions later than the hardcores). But still, for the mobs the more casual guilds could kill, they were given an equal share because on my server the hardcore guilds did not want to deal with the same things we deal with on p99 any less than the less hardcore guilds did. So a mutual and simple understanding was formed.

It's a shame we can't do that here and had to have staff impose their on vision on us.

[Frieza_Prexus]

Oh, I'm not putting any of the negative actions of players on the staff's shoulders. I'm simply stating that when we speak in terms of what "should" be done that it must conform to the stated purpose of the server. We can point out what "can" be done or what might help certain player groups, but we cannot speak in terms of what "should" be done.

Certainly there are issues. Everquest raiding is largely a textbook example of the tragedy of the commons.

Originally Posted by Magnar

Whether or not the developers have a 'vision' of what they want raiding to be is irrelevant.

Not so. The staff very much decided that what was happening was not in accordance with their vision and the raid discussions came about as a direct result of that. I am just pointing out that we have to be realistic with our expectations. Before the environment can change, a deeper systemic change must first occur within the developer's minds. What the developers want is entirely relevant. In fact, it's the whole point.

[Juryiel]

I've also seen the C/C/R argument by various people. I'm again curious about the thought process that goes into that. Antagonizing competing guilds aside, do people as individuals actually believe that this distribution is appropriate given that only 2 guilds are in class C and the rest of the server in R? I mean, it does make sense in some ways to have class C get a bigger piece of the pie if we want to promote it, but with the current number of guilds in R, the rotation is what, 4 months or something silly like that?

Do the people in class C really see that as an appropriate amount of time to wait for those who don't want to play the tracking / socking / batphone game? A C/C/R argument would make more sense if the ratio of C to R guilds was much larger, but I find it strange that this is how disconnected class C feels from class R to be pushing for this, especially if I assume that many current class C were in class R previously and probably have friends in class R. I don't know about everyone else I guess but I love it when guilds my friends are in succeed, or when new guilds succeed, etc on their own terms. Giving them the opportunity to do so as much as possible without hurting my own guild would be something I would think seriously about on a regular basis.

[khanable]

Originally Posted by Juryiel [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I've also seen the C/C/R argument by various people. I'm again curious about the thought process that goes into that. Antagonizing competing guilds aside, do people as individuals actually believe that this distribution is appropriate given that only 2 guilds are in class C and the rest of the server in R? I mean, it does make sense in some ways to have class C get a bigger piece of the pie if we want to promote it, but with the current number of guilds in R, the rotation is what, 4 months or something silly like that?

I'm not C and I think it's fair.

Keep in mind winter is coming, and when it snows, the c/r/ffa system goes.

[Frieza_Prexus]

Originally Posted by Juryiel [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I've also seen the C/C/R argument by various people. I'm again curious about the thought process that goes into that. Antagonizing competing guilds aside, do people as individuals actually believe that this distribution is appropriate given that only 2 guilds are in class C and the rest of the server in R? I mean, it does make sense in some ways to have class C get a bigger piece of the pie if we want to promote it, but with the current number of guilds in R, the rotation is what, 4 months or something silly like that?

Do the people in class C really see that as an appropriate amount of time to wait for those who don't want to play the tracking / socking / batphone game? A C/C/R argument would make more sense if the ratio of C to R guilds was much larger, but I find it strange that this is how disconnected class C feels from class R to be pushing for this, especially if I assume that many current class C were in class R previously and probably have friends in class R. I don't know about everyone else I guess but I love it when guilds my friends are in succeed, or when new guilds succeed, etc on their own terms. Giving them the opportunity to do so as much as possible without hurting my own guild would be something I would think seriously about on a regular basis.

It largely comes down to what is favored by the staff, and what fits more cleanly within their vision. On live, the majority of servers had a small amount of players consuming all of the high end content. Thus, the most dedicated (or neck-bearded depending on your point of view) receive a proportionally higher share that is commensurate with their input.

The rotational bloat is something that many people have pointed out. Public rotations are a form of subsidy which inevitably encourages expansion. The issue here is that we've had a revolution for Class R, but they are only now having to deal with the consequences of the proletariat having free admission to boss mobs. From the player's standpoint it always comes back to "how far am I willing to go to get loot?" The more cooperatively minded players have a much lower threshold, and are more willing to bargain early in the discussion. However, rarely will the player base be so altruistic so as to completely hobble themselves by supporting a bloated system that leaves little to nothing for themselves. If Class R continues to grow, it will be quite interesting to watch.

[Juryiel]

Originally Posted by khanable [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm not C and I think it's fair.

Keep in mind winter is coming, and when it snows, the c/r/ffa system goes.

I'm just hypothetically discussing to get a sense of why the classes are so hell bent on antagonizing each other. I don't actually care about the particular system in place. It's easy to quit at any point the game stops being fun, though so far that hasn't happened yet.