Taken - Sev

[doyoueventrainbro]

Sirken clearly states that IF YOU DON'T HAVE FTE, DON'T FUCKING KILL IT.

Stand by your own statements.

[Signal]

Not to cause a stir with you Chest just to clarify. I think the problem with that Nagafen was 2 guilds participated in killing it while having 2 trackers on the spawn to engage it each. It essentially let BDA and Taken use 4 trackers and 2 guilds to engage a Dragon with and kill it while every other guild was restricted to 2 each ? Feel free to correct me if I am wrong but that to me seemed like the bigger infraction on that Nagafen.

Not saying it was a worked out plan between the 2 guilds to work together killing it. However, the moment you decided to engage to help them finish killing it you essentially made it 1 raid force with 4 trackers there.

[Hitpoint]

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That's my issue, consistency. I was on vacation when Sadad got dragged to the table by Derubael and TMO over an issue that was nearly 90 days old that Sirken personally told me was squashed. We engaged a FFA Naggy at 10% when Taken had FTE. Taken wasn't likely to wipe and one of our officers made the call to get some hits in. Unbrella demanded a Nagafen because Taken could have wiped thus preventing a TMO engage. Derubael decided an appropriate punishment was to leverage the class R rotation slot we have for Naggy into being skipped the next time up. I fully disagreed with the punishment on multiple levels.

Taken killing Sev was so much more blatant. I'm fucking shocked that the staff made this ruling with multiple incidences of precedence that have already been resolved. It's not consistent at all. Why should BDA lose a class R target over an FFA encounter and Taken gets a warning? What's the logical precedence to determine that? If the answer is "because the staff said so" then expect this type of fallout every fucking time because when the staff isn't consistent there will be questions and cries of favoritism.

After a two (or was it three?) month old petition was finally examined and ruled on, Tmo got banned from VP for a week and our loot was deleted from 4 legitimate kills on the previous VP. Essentially losing loot off 4 kills that we worked for, and potentially 6 more dragons the next week. When our competition essentially did the same thing two weeks later that got us suspended, they had to forfeit a single Druushk to us.

Rulings here may never be consistent. And I wish that wasn't the case. But the only thing we can take away from it is that guild negotiations need to happen, they need to be fair and reasonable, and we can't let issues be brought to the GMs. This is what the staff wants. If one guild comes to another with a reasonable grievance, dropping a pull, or forfeiting a spawn, or giving up the loot, needs to be something all guilds are open to. Letting grudges and fucking retarded politics bullshit come in the way of player negotiations, is in nobody's best interest. And it seems like this happens more often than not.

Also, I don't know who informed you, but that Naggy was at 30%, had not dropped in health for a long time, and the last handful of people were being summoned and killed. I watched the whole thing, probably even had fraps of it at some point.

[Hitpoint]

If one guild comes to another with a reasonable grievance; dropping a pull, or forfeiting a spawn, or giving up the loot, needs to be something all guilds are open to.

Edited for confusing sentence structure.

[Signal]

Do GMs not understand game mechanics on this server ? In the SEV thread in the raid section Derubel obviously doesn't understand the situation and he has the encounter log in front of him.

The mages that got added to Sev's aggro list immediately and 20 seconds later was no fault of their own Derubel. It happened because first Nemce set off an AoE on the mages from IB and their pets attacked Sev. Theya dragged Sev closer to other mages and his 2nd AoE went off and aggroed the next group of pets when his AoE refreshed. Bards in the group with these mages were added because they were getting coth'ed and hitting those mages with songs. Them getting added to the aggro list was the direct fault of Nemce and Theya.

[arsenalpow]

Originally Posted by Signal [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Not to cause a stir with you Chest just to clarify. I think the problem with that Nagafen was 2 guilds participated in killing it while having 2 trackers on the spawn to engage it each. It essentially let BDA and Taken use 4 trackers and 2 guilds to engage a Dragon with and kill it while every other guild was restricted to 2 each ? Feel free to correct me if I am wrong but that to me seemed like the bigger infraction on that Nagafen.

Not saying it was a worked out plan between the 2 guilds to work together killing it. However, the moment you decided to engage to help them finish killing it you essentially made it 1 raid force with 4 trackers there.

There was no prior discussion to work together on that kill. If we were working together we would have engaged alongside them from the start. The entire situation was a hypothetical. Taken might have wiped and TMO might have picked up FTE after but BDA jumped in for the last percentages of the kill and now we're class R suspended for an FFA mob. Additionally i don't even remember where our trackers were for that engage, they might have been at the zoneline. I didn't see any fraps or screenshots which seems to be the default requirement for these situations.

This isn't the point though. The point is there have been multiple instances where guilds have been suspended for killing something that wasn't their FTE, which happens to be the current situation. Who was or wasn't on the encounter log is irrelevant. The entire zone knew the FTE was bogus, anyone on that encounter log should have bailed out ASAP to get a fresh reset, instead Taken killed it. They didn't accidentally kill it, it was voluntary and calculated. Intent means something.

[Hitpoint]

From Derubael in raid discussion forums. Figure I'll just respond here.

^as you can see by my excellent mspaint circles, There are multiple guilds who grabbed aggro even 30 seconds or a minute after the engage went off. Every one of these guilds are potentially breaking the rule you are referencing above. And of course we'd have to hit AG as well, for the FTE tracker fuckup. So we're basically looking at suspending 3-4 guilds from the next Sev engage - including BDA - over this one pull.

None of you guys should have any business being on that log 30 - 60 seconds after the fact if we are going to follow the "fte is king" rule here.

I circled the length as well, representing how long each player had aggro (ie, these people did not camp to get off the hate list if their 'length' is over ~30 seconds)

This is why we aren't suspending Taken, or anyone else. This situation is not the same as other FTE violations we've had in the past, nor is it close enough to the Nagafen situation Chest is referring to for it to be used as a precedent.

Edit: I forgot to circle the IB and TMO guys, but I circled their length, which was almost 2 minutes in IB's case and nearly 3 in TMO's.

Being on a mobs agro list isn't against the rules unless they cause some kind of interference by pulling agro or setting off an aoe. Our pullers stayed in game to tail the dragon with fraps since they were the only ones there, and and would have WC capped out immediately if the pull had been dropped. Which still isn't the best choice and they probably should have camped immediately, but at least it isn't a rules violation. No rules were broken by anyone who got on that dragons agro list, except the mag who initially agro'd, which he rectified by immediately dying and then NOT pulling the dragon in. The violation which matters here, is a guild killing a mob which they do not have FTE on.

[Derubael]

Originally Posted by Signal [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Do GMs not understand game mechanics on this server ? In the SEV thread in the raid section Derubel obviously doesn't understand the situation and he has the encounter log in front of him.

The mages that got added to Sev's aggro list immediately and 20 seconds later was no fault of their own Derubel. It happened because first Nemce set off an AoE on the mages from IB and their pets attacked Sev. Theya dragged Sev closer to other mages and his 2nd AoE went off and aggroed the next group of pets when his AoE refreshed. Bards in the group with these mages were added because they were getting coth'ed and hitting those mages with songs. Them getting added to the aggro list was the direct fault of Nemce and Theya.

We understood that part. No one should have been standing that close to Sev, in case someone showed up who didn't have faction work done. Can't just assume everyone knows what they're doing on an FFA target. You were all at fault for being too close, which is why this whole thing happened.

[Hitpoint]

Like I said, I don't care about the ruling personally. No big deal. But lets not pretend like we all did something wrong here.

[Swish]

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]