The troubles with modern MMO's...

[Clark]

Originally Posted by Sirken [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Secrets and I started a pretty good discussion on this topic monday night, but as usual, we got distracted (link- http://youtu.be/8FlvNheQ0Ew)

the only thing id disagree with is the in game voice chat. a lot of the time its xbox live community types, especially if i had to deal with nerds from PUGs. for guilds sure it would be nice. but other than that, i dont need my grinding immersion ruined by highpitched mouthbreathing neckbeards that weren't hugged enough as a child.

then again, maybe im just jaded.

Agreed.

[Xer0]

Originally Posted by Dunes [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

TL

Im going to have to disagree with the itemization; There are very few uniquely modeled items in EQ and those are usually very specifically geared to a particular class, or only usable by a select few.

Mind you when I refer to moden MMO's I very specifically have WoW in mind; Not present day, but vanilla.

The itemization on WoW was awesome, eq (at least classic) has an extremely limited item pool, if you're making a character there are only about 3 or 4 pieces per slot but budget range-- because face it if you can't scrape together 10k what does it matter how sweet that sword looks?

Not only were the weapon models far more diversified, but the stat arrangements were also far more varied; I like the model of giving A standard item and having a "dice roll" determine at random what stats will pop up on it when looted. Specifically regarding this, I remember after Gates of Discord came out I was rolling some sort of wisdom class and I found myself searching the bazaar for affordable and usable items, and I came up with a lot of the same stuff that I was using on my druid-- very first live toon during Velious. That to me is just off.

I also liked the animations in Wow-- watching my undead rogue reach up and parry+ riposte, rather thanw atching for text was nice.

probably get flamed to hell for this, but WoW, in it's early years, did a LOT of things right.

[Daywolf]

Originally Posted by Dunes [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I know this is a TL;DR for a lot of folks, and I apologize. I think we all secretly hope that the next great game developer will read our comments and take them to heart, but sometimes its worth venting for the sake of venting.

Actually I was scanning for the actual reason, I would say that those are but only results.

For your likes, I don't think graphics really matter, but maybe you are unaware of the use of graphics style in modern mmo's which is linked to the actual reason.

Here is what's been going on, psychologists told publishers/investors how to make a compulsive game that makes LOTS of money and the publishers tell the devs how to make the game.

Where does that LOTS of money come from if every freakin modern mmo is now f2p? Well from a very narrow few, targeted ages 18-25 years old (no less for legal reasons... but their money is welcomed too), that are categorized as gullible to the point of not being able to control their bank accounts.

To attract the 18-25yo crowd to find the "whale" (they call them whales) amongst them, they typically design the art style of the game to be "cartoony".

Once they get them in, it becomes a balance of a "skill game" vs a "cash game". Usually starting out as a skill game, where you are not very compelled to spend cash yet. But once the whale is hooked, they start spending $1000's into the cash game to continue progressing at an enjoyable rate or access special things to make them feel good for the moment, and even to take them away again if not maintained with their cash flow (a classic trap).

There are many-many tricks to do this, such as progression gates, token layers, antes and many other tricks to catch the whale and empty their bank accounts. Some of these tricks they learned from animal experiments, others through studying well known cons from the annals of psychology.

Games stopped being designed purely as the skill-game, fun for the many is not the target at all any longer. The target is the few that spend LOTS of money, the underdeveloped compulsive spenders, those are the people that the games are designed for.

[Ahldagor]

Originally Posted by Sirken [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Secrets and I started a pretty good discussion on this topic monday night, but as usual, we got distracted (link- http://youtu.be/8FlvNheQ0Ew)

the only thing id disagree with is the in game voice chat. a lot of the time its xbox live community types, especially if i had to deal with nerds from PUGs. for guilds sure it would be nice. but other than that, i dont need my grinding immersion ruined by highpitched mouthbreathing neckbeards that weren't hugged enough as a child.

then again, maybe im just jaded.

console babies are what ruined gaming

[Dunes]

Originally Posted by Xer0 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Mind you when I refer to moden MMO's I very specifically have WoW in mind; Not present day, but vanilla.

I agree! I mentioned somewhere in the wall the vanilla WoW was okay (actually, it was pretty good once you get past the over-the-topness of it all). Pretty much everything following Vanilla WoW is where things unraveled. Keep in mind that vanilla WoW was released just 5 years after EQ did (2004ish). It still tried to tread the line between mass-market appeal and catering to people like us.

Regarding models, yes, EQ had very limited models for weapons and armor. But you still had red plate, black plate, grey plate, etc etc. You can look at a player and generally have a decent idea of what they are wearing. The newest MMO's (those made in the last decade), with some exceptions for end-game content, have chain model, plate model, leather model, etc with very limited changes in appearance as you level.

Anyway, EQ is by no means perfect (blasphemy!), but there is something about the struggle, the grind, the companionship, and the loss that makes classic EQ far superior to any of the modern MMOs.

[tanknspank]

Agreed on your dislikes.

On grouping, I do think it should be the preferred mode of the game, though I think some minimal soloing should be possible for all classes. (If we speak in EQ terms, maybe bind would being stronger for mid level melees)

Some other things I'd add to dislikes is:

• Lack of Freedom - EQ gives you the freedom to use the tools you have in all kinds of crazy ways. Want to switch your spells "in combat"? If you can get the mob off your back for a few seconds, you can. Want to start casting something then someone else lands invisibility on you? You can. Want to equip an item from Sebilis on your level 1 alt, you can. Want to start a high level quest at level 1? You (mostly) can.
  
  This freedom of using the tools the game gives you generated so many interesting tactics. Combined with the slower pace, a lot of times it makes it possible to salvage a defeat into a victory. Those are the memorable, exciting fights. Not doing the same dance over and over until everyone gets it right with little chance to recover from mistakes / bad luck.
  
  
• Balance - Dislike balance, what? Yes. Balance is good when it's in the sense of "every class has a reason to be played". Nowadays it's become "every healer must heal equally", "every DPS must DPS equally", "every class must have the same CC/interrupts/debuffs". It kills uniqueness and makes the tools bland.
  
  Does a part of me want my druid to be more group desired? Sure. But I LOVE the fact that it has a different toolset than my cleric or my SK, and the reduced group desirability is made up by flexibility and solo ability.
  
  
• Quests - There's so much I dislike about quests I could write an entire post just on them. Let's set aside the quest hubs / tracks though. On a more basic level I dislike the non-repeatability of quests. I dislike that quest items are just quest items and only drop when you have the quest active. I dislike the volume of them, which in turns make them bland and unmemorable. I dislike the fact that if you're 0.1 level below a set number you can't start a quest even if you're playing with friends who are on it. I dislike the fact that every quest has to give rewards for every class (not always, but a lot of the times you get a choice of cloth/plate/chain).

Originally Posted by Dunes [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Integrated intelligent voice chat

I disagree with the integrated part. I've never seen an integrated voice comm that is as good as a separate client, or even decent. Personally I'd like to see gaming companies team up with TS / Vent / whatever and link the external voice client into the game. For example make it so you can set a server/room link in your group's properties and make it possible for members to launch/join using a single click from in game. Once joined make it so the game displays members / active speaker in a window from the associated voice client.

Originally Posted by Dunes [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Graphics

I think a lot of newer MMOs go overboard with graphics. Some abstraction and cartooniness is good. Good, smooth models and some effects are OK, but don't go overboard with detail to the point of making my eyes bleed. In this same category keep the spell effects simple and distinctive. I love how in EQ I can visually see the enchanter mez or the druid snare. In most other MMOs it's all a mess of particles even just from 5 people.

Originally Posted by Dunes [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Engaging Boss Encounters

To a point, but I think scripting encounters is being overdone. Everything has become a dance that has to be done in specific ways with specific amounts of dps/HP/healing.

[indiscriminate_hater]

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[fahlen]

Its sad that EQ is so far away from what would be remotely considered acceptable to the MMO community these days, that I'm just hoping for a game to even compare to vanilla WoW. Sure, it had a ton of flaws. But so did EQ. A lot of those "flaws" keep us logging in day to day.

[iruinedyourday]

Originally Posted by indiscriminate_hater [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

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holly shit that is amazing.

[fastboy21]

beware korean mmos...there is something seriously messed up with korean gamers that truly frightens me.