New map desktop app coming soon (as long as it's still kosher with p99 rules)

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Arclyte [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

actively tracking yourself with a harry potter map is not the same

Can your finger follow (ie. "actively track") a map? If so then it seems the same to me.

But let's put all of the deep-seated moral objections aside for a minute and focus on something practical: even if you somehow magically convinced the GMs to change their minds and ban this app IT WOULDN'T MATTER. Unless the devs also banned all log reading programs, and patched in an anti-cheat program to run alongside EQ and search for apps that are reading the log, there is nothing that the devs can do to stop this app.

ANY log reading program will (for the most part) be undetectable, which means it doesn't matter what your moral quibbles are, in practical terms there's nothing you can do about them.

[moklianne]

Originally Posted by HawkMasterson1999 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't remember my EQ atlas print outs having real time updated position indicators for myself and my competitors / allies. Its not even fair to call this a map app, its a player tracking app. If it was just maps I don't think people like myself would really care that much. It also sounds like the developer is considering adding more "features". We don't like the direction this takes the server. A self described classic server by the way which so many of you seem to forget.

The only way to stop stuff like this is to disable logging though.

[HawkMasterson1999]

Its not impossible to disable logging. Some of you must think our devs are morons. The anti cheat prog sounds pretty cool actually. I'm all for something like that.

[Zuranthium]

Originally Posted by myriverse [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Immersion is a fallacy.

By 2000, everybody I knew had maps next to their computers when they played. The only difference here is the medium: paper vs pixels.

Immersion is hardly a fallacy.

Having a map did not tell you exactly where you were in the zone. You still had to sit there and /loc and move in somewhat jagged patterns. The huge difference is that if a monster ATTACKS you, then you don't have time to stop at all. You can't just click a button and see exactly where you are and how to get straight to the zoneline, while avoiding other areas with aggro threats.

Nor could you just click a button and see exactly where your party members are, so that if you get separated you can immediately find them without any threat of being caught alone.

There is a massive difference. Also, 2000 is not 1999.

[kaev]

Originally Posted by HawkMasterson1999 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Its not impossible to disable logging. Some of you must think our devs are morons. The anti cheat prog sounds pretty cool actually. I'm all for something like that.

1. Point out that disabling logging would be 100% not-classic.
2. Mention that even in 1999 with the full-screen UI it was possible to monitor your log from a second PC on the same LAN.
3. Give reminder that disabling logging would be, you know, like, totally not-classic.
4. ???
5. Walk off chuckling about people who demand that classic features must be removed in the name of :classic:.

[myriverse]

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Immersion is hardly a fallacy.

Having a map did not tell you exactly where you were in the zone.

Sure it did.

You still had to sit there and /loc and move in somewhat jagged patterns.

You still have to do this with this program. Never ever did the jagged pattern though.

The huge difference is that if a monster ATTACKS you, then you don't have time to stop at all. You can't just click a button and see exactly where you are and how to get straight to the zoneline, while avoiding other areas with aggro threats.

Um... yeah, you can.

Nor could you just click a button and see exactly where your party members are, so that if you get separated you can immediately find them without any threat of being caught alone.

You could.

There is a massive difference. Also, 2000 is not 1999.

This game assumes 2000, not 1999. The Kunark era is nearly gone. Velious is upon us. That's 2000!

[Zuranthium]

Originally Posted by myriverse [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Having a map did not tell you exactly where you were in the zone.] Sure it did.

NO, IT DIDN'T. A printed-out map would show you coordinates, which only means something after you looked at it and COMPARED it to what your current /loc was in the game. It would not freaking tell you exactly where you are in the game world when you're being chased down by a monster, so that you can immediately run in the correct direction to safety.

Originally Posted by myriverse [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[You can't just click a button and see exactly where you are and how to get straight to the zoneline] Um... yeah, you can.

No, you can't. Clicking /loc doesn't tell you exactly where the zoneline or other key spots in the zone are even if you've memorized their coordinates. It only gives you an idea. You have to process the information and orient yourself in the right direction. This takes some time and even if it's just a few seconds, that can easily be the difference between dying or not when you get aggroed. You're removing a large amount of the risk in the game if that element is gone.

Originally Posted by myriverse [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Nor could you just click a button and see exactly where your party members are, so that if you get separated you can immediately find them without any threat of being caught alone.] You could.

Huh? No you couldn't. There was only the /follow command which works in a very limited distance. If you stop for a few seconds and your party keeps moving and you lose line of sight, then you're on your own.

[loramin]

As I said, it's basically impossible to prevent the map app without preventing all log reading, and even if you wanted to do that you'd have to write a whole parallel "anti-cheat" program to enforce it. So, before banning every classic log-reading app and wasting a ton of dev time, let's consider what we'd get for it.

The personal location feature of this app is, at the least, very similar to existing classic functionality/technology (ie. printed map/2nd monitor + finger).

The "knowing exactly where your allies are" part isn't classic ... but neither is Teamspeak (Teamspeak-like programs did exist, but weren't common as few people had the bandwidth to run them and EQ simultaneously). Teamspeak offers similar functionality to the "allies location" feature; admittedly it's less precise, but it doesn't require a second monitor/window so it's superior in that sense.

So, do you really want to ban all log-readers, and waste a ton of developer time, just to prevent slightly-better-than-finger-plus-map location display and slightly-better-than-teamspeak location sharing?

[HawkMasterson1999]

Originally Posted by kaev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

1. Point out that disabling logging would be 100% not-classic.
2. Mention that even in 1999 with the full-screen UI it was possible to monitor your log from a second PC on the same LAN.
3. Give reminder that disabling logging would be, you know, like, totally not-classic.
4. ???
5. Walk off chuckling about people who demand that classic features must be removed in the name of :classic:.

This thread has gotten pretty long so I understand if you haven't read the whole thing but I covered this one way back.

Originally Posted by HawkMasterson1999 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

...As far as devs making mechanics unclassic in order to restore classic experience, they have done so in many instances. The most prominent example that comes to mind is the nerfing of ivandyr's hoop. Not to mention all the tweaks made to end game encounters like not being able to bind in seb. I don't expect that we will have a perfect carbon copy of classic EQ but it doesn't mean we should just give up on trying to keep it as classic as possible. Real time maps in game are certainly not classic and to suggest that they are is laughable.

[Zuranthium]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As I said, it's basically impossible to prevent the map app without preventing all log reading, and even if you wanted to do that you'd have to write a whole parallel "anti-cheat" program to enforce it.

I've no idea how much dev time it would take.

But ideally they would ban it, yes. It's far more than a "slight" difference, as you try to put it.

Log-reading was not part of the intended classic EQ experience anyway.

Everquest is supposed to be a game where you log on and play a character in an epic fantasy World. Trying to break it down and software it is the opposite of actually playing the game.