Women of Norrath, what's your experience?

[Tiggles]

Girls are bad at MMO's and they cause drama that blows up guilds. This is why professional WoW guilds have policies of inviting female members.

[Ajkuhuun]

Originally Posted by JPMorgan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm sure the fact that you were playing a tank for the second time through had absolutely no impact on this.

Normally I'd agree with you, because it makes sense. However in the many years I've played I've done this in reverse and achieved the same results, obviously the difference wasn't quite as pronounced as the years wore on, but still definitely there.

[JPMorgan]

Originally Posted by Ajkuhuun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Normally I'd agree with you, because it makes sense. However in the many years I've played I've done this in reverse and achieved the same results, obviously the difference wasn't quite as pronounced as the years wore on, but still definitely there.

I am curious about your experiment being conducted in reverse. Did you openly state that you were a female in RL on your female toon? I mean, let's be honest, most men assume most female characters are being played by men. I think this plays into why you may have experienced discrimination at all: the ratio of men to women in MMOs (especially in classic EQ) would be considerably skewed. Less women players inevitably means less skilled women players.

I find your disposition convincing. But, I think a lot of people would be quick to point at their race, gender, religion, sexual preference etc. as a source of discrimination, before admitting that they simply aren't as good as they think they are. However, in 1999 I suppose it's easier to imagine a more hostile environment. I also think it's important to consider an alternative source of this treatment. As others have so eloquently said in previous posts: you get free pixels, you get attention for no meaningful reason, and your personal behavior can literally destroy the social fabric of a guild.

[Ajkuhuun]

In my reverse experiments I openly stated I was a girl, in some form or another, while on the male characters I simply didn't correct anyone.

And I get what you're saying, it's much easier to blame something like sex or race when in actuality it's a failing on your part which is causing you to be treated differently. Often times many of us are guilty of thinking we're a bit better than we actually are, hell knows I'm guilty of it. Difference is when you're playing a male character, folks are much more likely to point out when and how you're fucking up, so you can improve, not so much on girls. I'd be likely to question my play ability rather than the differences in how the sexes are treated in video games, if I didn't catch high praise on my male toons and being trusted repeatedly with important jobs, where as my openly female characters just weren't. I'm not saying I'm insanely awesome, especially now that I just don't have the drive or the time to hardcore game anymore, but I wasn't too shabby.

You're absolutely right on how females get a lot of benefits in the gaming world, every one of your points is spot on, free pixels, attention, and of course there's the ewhore consequence issue. My point is that those of us who do care about playing the game on a higher level (or did in my case) do reap the consequences of girls who give gaming girls a bad name in general, and have to work hard to overcome those obstacles.

Like I said in the beginning of my post, I haven't ran into it a lot on P99, people seem equally pleasant and giving to new folks regardless of sex, as well as just helping out in general, but I'm also not a part of nor plan to be a part of the raid scene, so I can't speak for how it affects anything on the higher level.

To be fair, this was my personal experience and what drove me to play more of a male persona when I game, but I began gaming when females just weren't as prevalent in the gaming world, and times have changed. Someone starting now may have an entirely different experience to what I encountered back in 1999.

[JPMorgan]

Originally Posted by Ajkuhuun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Like I said in the beginning of my post, I haven't ran into it a lot on P99, people seem equally pleasant and giving to new folks regardless of sex, as well as just helping out in general, but I'm also not a part of nor plan to be a part of the raid scene, so I can't speak for how it affects anything on the higher level.

At first I was extremely discouraged when I joined p99. I met a guy who was playing a female toon of the same race, class and level: only he had a lot of really nice upgrades constantly handed out to him while I maintained my trusty, rusty spear. I was pleasantly surprised, however, when I eventually got a some cool hand-me-downs as well. I think this is indicative of the higher level of maturity of p99 when compared to classic live. We're all substantially older now.

To be fair, this was my personal experience and what drove me to play more of a male persona when I game, but I began gaming when females just weren't as prevalent in the gaming world, and times have changed. Someone starting now may have an entirely different experience to what I encountered back in 1999.

I've always found the concept of women playing male characters interesting. Men play women for various reasons, but in the end it's expected that most women are men. I don't think I've ever encountered a male character who I had suspected was actually a female.

In a way it exchanges any positive or negative impact that your sexual identity may have upon your experience, for the impacts of your actual achievements and other measurable qualifications. This is the reality of gaming for nearly all male players. A man is simply a player, there are no other factors. He is measured by the results he produces. A woman is a female and a player, and so a different set of criteria shapes her experiences. It's kind of a double-edged sword: do you want free shit and special treatment, or do you want to be taken seriously?

Is it right? Probably not. But, I think the social context created by women flaunting the fact that they are women isn't going to improve anything from the vantage point of any neck beard. I'm not saying women should hide the fact that they are women, I'm just saying it behooves them to not go out of their way to announce it. Just like on your male character: you didn't correct anyone, and you didn't play up the fact that you're a woman. Which is pretty groovy. So, my next comment doesn't really apply to you.

But, for statements like these:

Lol, you seriously think women have an easier time in online games?

The answer is obviously "yes." You will have an easier time getting gear, and you will have an easier time procuring help in achieving whatever it is you want to achieve. However, if you abuse the fact that most men will jump at the chance to help a woman gamer by flaunting your alleged double X chromosomes while expecting to be taken seriously, you will technically have a harder time, in that you will fail to have your cake and eat it too.

[Clark]

Originally Posted by Fame [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You get free pixels and attention already, isn't that enough for you whores?

lol

[Clark]

Originally Posted by Tiggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Girls are bad at MMO's and they cause drama that blows up guilds. This is why professional WoW guilds have policies of inviting female members.

Dang lol didn't know that.

[Faerie]

I wiped a raid once (easy as a bard~) and when it happened the guildleader was super pissed, but when I told him it was my fault he calmed down and was like, "Well, mistakes happen." At the time I didn't mind because I was super embarrassed, but looking back if most other members had done that they'd have been chewed out and maybe told to sit out a raid or two.

Sometimes now when I join an MMO, I don't tell anyone my RL gender. When I first started playing here (red release november 2011!) I did this, and if anyone asked about my RL I just told them I was a gnome. Other times though it's fun to express your femininity.

Even while being a Tunarian princess, I feel it's best to be really careful about things. In one of the MMOs I played, I found myself in a very unpleasant situation. I'd been with a guild for a while and really liked the people and how we worked together; they were great e-friends. Things really started to cross over into creepiness with the guildleader, though. We talked tons in game and on the guild forum, but I didn't think much of it until he started to get sort of needy and demanding of my attention. Then he told me that he was collecting our phone numbers in case there was something super important happening, and I gave it to him. So then he was calling and texting me like every day and I didn't know what to say to make him stop. I was 16 at the time, and he was nearing 40. It got to the point where I was actually frightened and I quit the game for a while, and blocked his number. Later I found out that he had been doing the same thing to other girls in the guild.

I hope I don't sound like those "gamer girls" in that youtube clip, but I just want to fucking play video games. It sucks to feel like you're inadvertently leading someone on when you just want to be friends and kill dwarves together or whatever. I have this serious problem where people become infatuated with me over the gaming medium. It hasn't happened here yet, but I think that's because I sort of know how to avoid it now.

And you read that phone numbers, addresses, pics and all sorts of things are being leaked over EQ drama. A lot of this recently over on Red, and it makes me very uncomfortable.

Anyway, yeah. Sexism and stalker behavior is alive and well here in the gaming community.

[Ajkuhuun]

Faerie, I can relate. My character was featured in a series of online EQ comics a friend of mine wrote, and was featured in a Silky Venom article regarding girl gaming. After that I logged into so many tells I actually couldn't get to them all, most of which were especially disconcerting...I actually had a guy bug me for three straight days wanting to know what shoe size I wore. I stopped logging in, and a RL friend of mine got tired of not having a tank for our groups and paid for a name change for me.

[Faerie]

Originally Posted by Ajkuhuun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Faerie, I can relate. My character was featured in a series of online EQ comics a friend of mine wrote, and was featured in a Silky Venom article regarding girl gaming. After that I logged into so many tells I actually couldn't get to them all, most of which were especially disconcerting...I actually had a guy bug me for three straight days wanting to know what shoe size I wore. I stopped logging in, and a RL friend of mine got tired of not having a tank for our groups and paid for a name change for me.

Ouch [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Way to ruin something awesome, lame people.