Congratulations Lord Bob

[Man0warr]

No one told Lord Bob to GTFO - you can't find one piece of evidence except for some convo you had with Hyjal.

No guild said they couldn't join Sky Rotation, no Class R guild denied them a place in negotiations or Class R rotation spot.

Stop saying it, you are just being inflammatory at this point.

[Jaxon]

Originally Posted by Derubael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Even if they didn't ask, this doesn't change my stance that telling Doljon to play your way or GTFO of Class R is hypocritical and wrong, which is what my responses in this thread have been about.

Which goes to show that you have failed to understand the R position, which is why everyone is sitting here laughing at you.

There are guilds that want to experience content without having to race other players, and guilds that want to stomp face. The issue central to the talks was the segregation of these classes and how much of a share of raid content each would get. Asking Bob to leave the R mobs alone until they're prepared to join the rotation is in line with this philosophy and is in no way hypocritical.

[Comapavik]

Sounds like deru's saying we should band together to enforce the player made sky rotation, but not the player made class r rotation. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

I get that this is not your real job, and you are free to say whatever you want here, but you should probably realize that your words carry a little more weight here than everyone else's. Whether or not you intended to, you are provoking lord bob into pulling more shenanigans. Maybe lay off the trolling and stay out of issues that are purely between players unless you're just trying to stir up shit. Or use a troll account like everyone else.

[Derubael]

Originally Posted by man0warr

No one told Lord Bob to GTFO

Do I really need to go back through the countless posts in multiple threads telling Lord Bob to metaphorically gtfo, or can you do this yourself? Read my posts again. I never said anything about 'gtfo of sky'.

[Tanthallas]

I think what he is trying to say is that if you collectively want something to be done, take steps to see that it is done. Actions speak louder than words - if five of you want rotations and one doesnt, why dont you pool your collective power to ensure that you have the upper hand? The raid agreements were not meant to provide you with what you want when you want it, but instead with more opportunities that you didnt have before by segregating you from FE, IB, and TMO.

I dont think analogies to capitalism are fitting, however. This is just standard balance of power politics that exist within any type of social formation.

[Tanthallas]

Originally Posted by Jaxon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Which goes to show that you have failed to understand the R position, which is why everyone is sitting here laughing at you.

There are guilds that want to experience content without having to race other players, and guilds that want to stomp face. The issue central to the talks was the segregation of these classes and how much of a share of raid content each would get. Asking Bob to leave the R mobs alone until they're prepared to join the rotation is in line with this philosophy and is in no way hypocritical.

I think you fail to understand that the raid agreements were not based upon a philosophy of different sides or the playstyles of different sides - they took place because of the practical fact that only 3 guilds were killing shit for years.

[Uteunayr]

Originally Posted by Derubael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

1) Don't base your entire argument during the raid talks on not forcing play styles, and then try to force your play style on Doljon by telling them to GTFO. What you seem to be misunderstanding is that I personally do not care about this whole 'forcing of play styles' thing. I don't think any of the staff does. We just want everyone to have a shot at content. But you guys as a whole do, and made a very big deal about it very recently, so to hear certain people screaming for this to happen is hypocrisy at it's finest.

2) Players should enforce player rotations. This means impose your own sanctions on guilds who don't fall in line. Doljon trying to snipe a CT that was supposed to go to Taken? Port BDA up and zerg that shit in 3 seconds. Going for an Indignation Maestro? Bring up AG and knock him out before they can even mobilize. Make them play your game, or not get content. EQ capitalism at it's best.

1) It is not the fault of the people on the server that less-higher progressed guilds are by and large not inherently competitive players seeking to dissolve and destroy player made agreements. Class C serves the purpose of giving a home to people who seek such cutthroat type of raiding environment, and Lord Bob, if seeking that type of thing, to obliterate agreements that were held up by even the most competitive of guilds prior to any sort of agreement, should be Class C. It is not appropriate to say that they need to bring that type of bad blood to Class R because there is no way they can compete in Class C, as that is inherent upon the play style present in Class C. If hardcore, competitive behavior is something that people want, they should be encouraged and free to join Class C. If they want more lower end guilds to compete in that way, the environment must be made more appealing to encourage new guilds to join that play style. If it does not, than it is forced, and there's no spreading around of content that each can see.

2) Player enforced rotations would be enforceable, as you describe, without the later added lock out system. Then, such decent arrangements would be possible. As stated in the rules, if I remember correctly, any guild that has more than 1 or 2 players involved on the aggro table of the mob that dies, a class R mob, that guild is added to a 2 respawn lock out for class R specific mobs. This makes the type of playe rmade enforcement mechanism you describe being to the worst degree of improbable, short of some sheisty bullshit like running multiple different guild names and splitting the population of one guild. In the past in EverQuest, the enforcement mechanism that players could levy across non-compliant players, would be in terms of restraining assistance to that guild in the way of rezzes, ports, and the like. But since in the EQ timeline, we're probably on Planes of Power at this point, there is a major inflation that I am certain you recognize in number of 60s, and number of alternate characters.

This effectively makes it so that there is no enforcement mechanism possible by players in a classic EQ sense, or in a "help the other compliant guilds out" sense. This would encourage those guilds that seek the type of disruptive behavior (which I say with no negative connotation, since it is perfectly reasonable to find that stuff fun) displayed by Class C guilds to join Class C, and appeal to more guilds to join that, because that is their conception of fun. If they cannot encourage enough people to join their style, than it isn't what enough people care about, so why should the majority be sacrificed for the sake of a few people who simply wish to see the world burn?

However, most of the issue here deals with Sky, something that the vast majority have agreed works better in a sense of rotation due to the way that the key system works. One guild to throw that aside, that even the previously most competitive have agreed to. At least when Europa when in and attempted to usurp a Sky day, they had a history of having attempted to engage the other players to gain a day through the system in place, but when found lacking, they took one. It was resolved, and all has been well since. But the original posts by Lord Bob were not seeking such a thing, and there has been little to no investigation upon it since. The pleasure and fun of some cannot rest upon the suffering and degradation of the many. Nor can the pleasure and fun of the many rest upon the suffering and degradation of the few. That is why separating the two and giving each a class to attempt to enjoy the game to their maximum degree was the best solution to this. But it ultimately fails if people do not correctly sort, as it is effectively the same as griefing. And when additional rules are put in place that bind the ability to player enforce, and the normal mechanics of enforcement are gone by nature of the server, you run into these issues, and they will continue to happen.

[Derubael]

Originally Posted by compavik

Sounds like deru's saying we should band together to enforce the player made sky rotation, but not the player made class r rotation

Originally Posted by Derubael

This means impose your own sanctions on guilds who don't fall in line. Doljon trying to snipe a CT that was supposed to go to Taken? Port BDA up and zerg that shit in 3 seconds. Going for an Indignation Maestro? Bring up AG and knock him out before they can even mobilize. Make them play your game, or not get content. EQ capitalism at it's best.

uh. what?

Originally Posted by Jaxon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Which goes to show that you have failed to understand the R position, which is why everyone is sitting here laughing at you.

There are guilds that want to experience content without having to race other players, and guilds that want to stomp face. The issue central to the talks was the segregation of these classes and how much of a share of raid content each would get. Asking Bob to leave the R mobs alone until they're prepared to join the rotation is in line with this philosophy and is in no way hypocritical.

And here's where I bow out, because you're never going to get it.

Asking Doljon to play a certain way AT ALL is hypocritical.

More importantly, these talks were never about segregation. It was about letting everyone experience content. What you think it was about and what it was actually about are two entirely different things. If these talks had been entirely player driven and created, it would be acceptable to make your own reasoning as to why they took place. Unfortunately, they were not, so please don't tell me what the central issue was when you had no part in getting them started in the first place. If this was about what you say it was about, Rogean would have enforced a rotation on Class R.

Good day, sirs. I have made my point, it is valid, if you do not get it, please re-read then /facepalm.

[Tanthallas]

Originally Posted by Uteunayr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

1)This effectively makes it so that there is no enforcement mechanism possible by players in a classic EQ sense, or in a "help the other compliant guilds out" sense. This would encourage those guilds that seek the type of disruptive behavior (which I say with no negative connotation, since it is perfectly reasonable to find that stuff fun) displayed by Class C guilds to join Class C, and appeal to more guilds to join that, because that is their conception of fun. If they cannot encourage enough people to join their style, than it isn't what enough people care about, so why should the majority be sacrificed for the sake of a few people who simply wish to see the world burn?

If a guild acts in a way that is against the vast majority of guilds interest, there will be consequences to that guild. If that guild thinks that there will be no consequences because the vast majority of other guilds like to talk about things instead of act upon things, then the vast majority of guilds simply dont deserve to have their positions be dominant.

What you are talking about here is a guild breaking an agreement and killing a dragon that other parties had some pre-arranged deal for. This is not the end of the world. It is one mob. If a guild acts that way, the enforcement mechanism that exists is consequences.

Noone gives a shit about your playstyle if you arent going to fight for your playstyle.

[Erati]

I approached Hyjal to join class R guild talks as well fully knowing that they probably wouldnt change their "no rotation stance"

i simply wanted him to join, listen to the leaders amd their ideas possibly to find something Hyjals guild would b interested in being a part of

while he didnt say no, he also did not do anything with the BDA vent info i gave him

he also said he had no mic and while i was discouraged he couldnt communicate verbally (very important with 15 loud mouth guild leaders in channel) i gave him the info and told him to come listen n do what he could

could he have sent another rep with a mic and thus b "a part" of those talks- Yes

this is the problem here w Bob, their stance is ignorance. Dont read the forums and just play the victim card of uninformed. Stick their head in the sand deep enough b blissfully unaware of things like this very thread.

i wish we could all just "play the game" but it seems here on P99 the game and the forums are one in the same at times.