Class C loses mobs on every repop?

[baramur]

Originally Posted by Troubled [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

3 C guilds atm, allowed 6 targets outside VP. 6 out of 11, provided those 6 are C or FFA. What's the problem? 6 mobs + VP for 3 guilds. 5 mobs left for the rest of the server if you beat R guilds to the FFA targets. It seems fine. You don't have to take every single target that is available, every single time. You are getting the lion's share. 12 of 17. 70?ish%. Is my logic flawed or is this right?

The issue is any class-c guild should be able to compete for any class-c mob, not restricted. There should never be a circumstance where Class-C mobs are not able to be engaged by Class-c period. The idea of the 2 classes was to divide the mobs equally among PLAY STYLES not GUILDS, yet you are justifying more mobs for R-Class on respawn because of the number of guilds. The whole point of Class-Competition was that any class-c mob would be in danger of being taken at any time, whether it be another class-c or a class-r guild. But FFA mobs are not really FFA if they take away a Class-C ability to attack a Class-c mob due to lockout. That CONTRADICTS the even playing field for Class-R and Class-C, which oddly the even share of mobs per class style is what Class-R kept preaching in raid negotiations. I never heard mention during the negotions that class-c should ever be restricted for killing class-c mobs, after all Class-R never is. You keep falling back to vp as being mobs handed to class-c, ok make them FFA all the time. See what the result would be. It is pointless arguing its simple math, the 2-mob cap makes FFA mobs not FFA for class-c cause it makes them trade on their 1/1/1 mob for a ffa, where it does not make Class-R, give up a Class-r mob to class-c, in order to kill a FFA. This would basically mean that Class-R is given more open world mobs, because they do not wish to compete in vp?

[Troubled]

Originally Posted by baramur [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The issue is any class-c guild should be able to compete for any class-c mob, not restricted. There should never be a circumstance where Class-C mobs are not able to be engaged by Class-c period. The idea of the 2 classes was to divide the mobs equally among PLAY STYLES not GUILDS, yet you are justifying more mobs for R-Class on respawn because of the number of guilds. The whole point of Class-Competition was that any class-c mob would be in danger of being taken at any time, whether it be another class-c or a class-r guild. But FFA mobs are not really FFA if they take away a Class-C ability to attack a Class-c mob due to lockout. That CONTRADICTS the even playing field for Class-R and Class-C, which oddly the even share of mobs per class style is what Class-R kept preaching in raid negotiations. I never heard mention during the negotions that class-c should ever be restricted for killing class-c mobs, after all Class-R never is. You keep falling back to vp as being mobs handed to class-c, ok make them FFA all the time. See what the result would be. It is pointless arguing its simple math, the 2-mob cap makes FFA mobs not FFA for class-c cause it makes them trade on their 1/1/1 mob for a ffa, where it does not make Class-R, give up a Class-r mob to class-c, in order to kill a FFA. This would basically mean that Class-R is given more open world mobs, because they do not wish to compete in vp?

The problem with removing a bag limit on C class though, while I agree in principle, is in practice then FFA mobs will be taken out first with an agreement made in C to not touch C mobs until FFA mobs are dead, imo. Why do I think that? You did it for VP on this spawn. Why didn't anyone enter VP until good mobs outside VP were dead? The bag limit makes you weigh your decisions more heavily, while still getting the majority of the server's kills within the class C guilds.

[Pheer]

Originally Posted by Metallikus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

speaking of play styles and contradictions.

FE and IB and TMO came to agreement to not compete against each other in class C - camped out at different mobs to take down the most efficiently in order to ONLY compete against those guilds unwilling to compete (class R).

TMO and IB did not even show a raid force in the zone for trakanon. FE competed against BDA.

TMO and FE did not even show a raid force in the zone for severilous. IB got that uncontested.

IB and FE did not show a raid force in the zone for faydedar. TMO got that uncontested.

COuld go on and on about your agreements to NOT compete outside of VP, and then there is the total collusion to NOT compete in VP as well. Carebear stare: Hoshkar and Phara Dar taken out by combined raid force of FE/IB/TMO. The other mobs split up with no competition at all.

Tell us more about about how CONTRADICTORY your PLAYSTYLES are in comparison to class R rotating their 33% mobs?

So you were angry when "class c" guilds couldnt play nice together when the "class r" guilds were getting next to 0 mobs, and now that class c guilds played nice together AND class R guilds got mobs you're even angrier.

How does that make any sense at all?

[Daldaen]

Originally Posted by Pheer [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So you were angry when "class c" guilds couldnt play nice together when the "class r" guilds were getting next to 0 mobs, and now that class c guilds played nice together AND class R guilds got mobs you're even angrier.

How does that make any sense at all?

Don't think he is angrier, but you do understand his point yes?

During the discussions, your guildmates and others who are guilder under Class C guild tags tried to justify their stance by stating "competition is classic, you had to wake up at this sort of hour and log on to a batphones message to slay dragons, if you can't or aren't willing to do that or track 24/7 you shouldn't get dragons".

Then when it changes you go and do exactly what the casual guilds would do. Come to agreements and rotate. Which is great... But it makes it seem like your original reasoning for your stance was merely a facade and the reality of the situation is that you just wanted to withhold pixels from the casual guilds and that pixel denial is what drove your competition. If that competition was really what drove you, you would have continued typical raid behavior as before. Atleast one would think.

So after weeks of people stonewalling and saying "we won't agree to any rotation", when the final raid plan ends up allowing for both some competition and some rotation, those who bitched and moaned about rotations being the end of the raid scene and competition is all that was left for them; you went and rotated without even trying to compete so far as the system allowed.

Is my view as a 3rd party observer incorrect? How much competition ended up happening the last 2 days? Why was there none - a lot ( depending on answer the previous question)?

[Fysts]

Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Don't think he is angrier, but you do understand his point yes?

During the discussions, your guildmates and others who are guilder under Class C guild tags tried to justify their stance by stating "competition is classic, you had to wake up at this sort of hour and log on to a batphones message to slay dragons, if you can't or aren't willing to do that or track 24/7 you shouldn't get dragons".

Then when it changes you go and do exactly what the casual guilds would do. Come to agreements and rotate. Which is great... But it makes it seem like your original reasoning for your stance was merely a facade and the reality of the situation is that you just wanted to withhold pixels from the casual guilds and that pixel denial is what drove your competition. If that competition was really what drove you, you would have continued typical raid behavior as before. Atleast one would think.

So after weeks of people stonewalling and saying "we won't agree to any rotation", when the final raid plan ends up allowing for both some competition and some rotation, those who bitched and moaned about rotations being the end of the raid scene and competition is all that was left for them; you went and rotated without even trying to compete so far as the system allowed.

Is my view as a 3rd party observer incorrect? How much competition ended up happening the last 2 days? Why was there none - a lot ( depending on answer the previous question)?

From what I have read from raid discussion is They only rotated VP due to fact they almost trained each other 2 times going for different targets due to cross training to pull named. Neither wanted to eat a 30 day ban, so they decided for a full VP repop instead of training each other, they would rotate it, and compete on the respawns that came one at a time. Now as for the outside world mobs, I believe each guild just tried to capitalize on what was smartest for the guild, sometimes if you know a guild is shooting for trak, it is smarter to shoot for another raid target then take the chance of competing and rushing and wiping. Wiping on a server respawn cost so much valuable time, it can cripple any chance you have of getting any mobs. Now on the outside mobs I am just speculating, by how i would strategize my own guild, if i knew tmo was shooting for vs and fe shooting for trak, I give you my assurance i would shoot for sev or inny. Thats just smart imo.

[Daldaen]

Originally Posted by Fysts [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

From what I have read from raid discussion is They only rotated VP due to fact they almost trained each other 2 times going for different targets due to cross training to pull named. Neither wanted to eat a 30 day ban, so they decided for a full VP repop instead of training each other, they would rotate it, and compete on the respawns that came one at a time. Now as for the outside world mobs, I believe each guild just tried to capitalize on what was smartest for the guild, sometimes if you know a guild is shooting for trak, it is smarter to shoot for another raid target then take the chance of competing and rushing and wiping. Wiping on a server respawn cost so much valuable time, it can cripple any chance you have of getting any mobs. Now on the outside mobs I am just speculating, by how i would strategize my own guild, if i knew tmo was shooting for vs and fe shooting for trak, I give you my assurance i would shoot for sev or inny. Thats just smart imo.

1. VP... It's depressing that the strategy on this server 99% of the time is train shit and Zerg down the dragon. Most of the challenge of EQ is meant to come from the environment, in that regard it means the add/trash clears. But alas, 14 years later ain't nobody got time for that.

2. Yea I understand it is "smarter" or rather, you are more likely to get a single kill by going to where your competition isn't. But... Those who were championing the importance of competition went on and on about how fun it is and how without it they wouldn't even want to raid. In the end however they went for the path of least resistance and didn't compete on the open world dragons, disproving their previous arguments.

[Fysts]

Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

1. VP... It's depressing that the strategy on this server 99% of the time is train shit and Zerg down the dragon. Most of the challenge of EQ is meant to come from the environment, in that regard it means the add/trash clears. But alas, 14 years later ain't nobody got time for that.

2. Yea I understand it is "smarter" or rather, you are more likely to get a single kill by going to where your competition isn't. But... Those who were championing the importance of competition went on and on about how fun it is and how without it they wouldn't even want to raid. In the end however they went for the path of least resistance and didn't compete on the open world dragons, disproving their previous arguments.

I will give you a slight lesson in VP since you seem to have no experience there. Trash mobs are a 2min respawn, if that. Meaning you cannot clear them, they have to be trained.

On your second note I see it as a lack of performance from Class-R. Maybe Class-C was expecting competition on FFA mobs, but no class-r stepped up to the plate. I saw your raid discussions, you complained that it wasn't that you would not race for mobs, but the tactics Class-c guilds used for raiding you would not do, now that the tactics were removed for the respawns, Class-R still did not challenge them on even footing, thus making your statements just as false. Sorry both sides tried to play trump cards and wound up just throwing off suit. Why not challenge class-c on FFA mobs on respawns, then you have a healthy raid environment with class-c vs class-c on class-c mobs, class-c vs class-r vs anyone else on ffa, and class-r rotation on class r mobs, which i think is what the intended plan was trying to do. I think Rogean really wants Class-r to challenge Class-c on ffa, now that all Class-c advantages and dirty tactics as you call them are removed, and like i said if any guild in class-r needs a hand AoD is always willing to try to help.

[Troubled]

Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

pixel denial is what drove your competition.

That's still the name of the game. Class C has worked out agreements, as vehemently as they fought each other before, to the point of fraps and suspensions, to make sure that now between them they get every possible pixel. That's why the imposed bag limits need to stay.

[Pheer]

Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Don't think he is angrier, but you do understand his point yes?

During the discussions, your guildmates and others who are guilder under Class C guild tags tried to justify their stance by stating "competition is classic, you had to wake up at this sort of hour and log on to a batphones message to slay dragons, if you can't or aren't willing to do that or track 24/7 you shouldn't get dragons".

Then when it changes you go and do exactly what the casual guilds would do. Come to agreements and rotate. Which is great... But it makes it seem like your original reasoning for your stance was merely a facade and the reality of the situation is that you just wanted to withhold pixels from the casual guilds and that pixel denial is what drove your competition. If that competition was really what drove you, you would have continued typical raid behavior as before. Atleast one would think.

So after weeks of people stonewalling and saying "we won't agree to any rotation", when the final raid plan ends up allowing for both some competition and some rotation, those who bitched and moaned about rotations being the end of the raid scene and competition is all that was left for them; you went and rotated without even trying to compete so far as the system allowed.

Is my view as a 3rd party observer incorrect? How much competition ended up happening the last 2 days? Why was there none - a lot ( depending on answer the previous question)?

Maybe because it was the first full repop since the changes and none of the class C guilds wanted to eat like a month long raid suspension right out the gate? TMO/FE/IB could either agree to a solution in VP that gives everybody mob kills and ensures no bullshit goes down the very first day of the new raid policy, or they could frantically rush around to mobs accidentally training eachother multiple times in the process and then argue with gms in petitions, on the forums, and amongst eachother for a week about whether said trains were accidental or intentional.

VP was desynching with all 3 guilds present and would have been a complete shit sandwich clusterfuck without some kind of agreement in place. I dont get why you guys seem to think theres some kind of secret class C illuminati new world order type shit going on behind closed doors to try to deny as many pixels as possible, its pretty obvious why things were done that way.

[Fysts]

Originally Posted by Metallikus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

speaking of play styles and contradictions.

FE and IB and TMO came to agreement to not compete against each other in class C - camped out at different mobs to take down the most efficiently in order to ONLY compete against those guilds unwilling to compete (class R).

TMO and IB did not even show a raid force in the zone for trakanon. FE competed against BDA.

TMO and FE did not even show a raid force in the zone for severilous. IB got that uncontested.

IB and FE did not show a raid force in the zone for faydedar. TMO got that uncontested.

COuld go on and on about your agreements to NOT compete outside of VP, and then there is the total collusion to NOT compete in VP as well. Carebear stare: Hoshkar and Phara Dar taken out by combined raid force of FE/IB/TMO. The other mobs split up with no competition at all.

Tell us more about about how CONTRADICTORY your PLAYSTYLES are in comparison to class R rotating their 33% mobs?

All those mobs you listed were FFA mobs, which means any Class-R could have competed and should have, but chose not to. I applaud BDA if they competed with FE on Trak, and had they gave me a shout out i woulda threw my guild weight to help, though it wouldnt be much, because they atleast embraced the idea of FFA mobs being competitve. It sounds to me like your more upset the Class-C guilds used their heads and strategy to kill FFA mobs, to me its just sad that no Class-R guilds besides BDA even tried to compete, are you seriously mad the competitoin class guilds raced for FFA mobs, when that is what they are intended for, then you have the audacity to call them care bears, its laughable. The sad thing is under the new no poopsock clause every class-r guild now has equal footing to engage FFA mobs on respawns, maybe they should have strategized to pick a FFA mob and TRY to compete. Sorry you get no sympathy from me, because the class-C guilds actually used strategy instead of brute force against each other. Personally I will say this, "Well played Class-C"