Re: Raid Situation

[Uteunayr]

Originally Posted by falkun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you don't like PVP, why is tier1 shoving it on the rest of the server? You realize this competition against other humans (players) for "fastest jav in the west" is player vs. player? On the blue server, competition should be "player vs. environment", regardless of how "old & stale" the environment is. That's the argument of casuals, PVP is for Red99, where you can turn around and attack that monk vying for "fastest jav in the west".

This is making insanely good sense to me.

Originally Posted by Raavak [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Why doesn't the staff just make all boss mobs spawnable with some token the guild leader gets. The trigger mobs respawn in hours. The guildleader gets new tokens every so often to start raids. That way guilds can raid when and where and how often they want to. And there is little to no competition, training, monopolization... it seems like this is where we are headed anyway.

Because some of us would find that abhorrent to force hardcore players to not play in a hardcore fashion. Believe me when I say that although I have been arguing heavily toward the casual side, I would be arguing the hardcore side if you all were forced into a play style that was not your own. You all want to compete, you want the hardcore style, and that's fine. But others don't, and that's fine too. That's the beauty of Rogean's plan. You all can compete amongst yourselves, and casuals can compete or rotate amongst themselves (whatever they decide). No one has to change play styles.

If the system you described was put into place, I'd be here arguing that hardcores got shafted because they are no longer able to enjoy their classic experience, the same way that right now, I am arguing that casuals are not getting their classic experience as it stands, because all the repop system did that we had was to make it so that casuals were able to play casual for 2 repops (at most 6 hours) of a month, rather than all month long. The Staff Proposal lets the casuals be casual all month long, and the hardcores be hardcore all month long. There's already a heavy emphasis on mobs in the hardcore side, and the idea of making the epic mobs have a Tier 1/Tier2/FFA split was a concession of that plan to give even more toward that playstyle. There's already enough in the base proposal for the hardcore guilds to compete over 2-3 mobs a day, every day, for the entire month, all year long.

Of course, if repops are on the table, then something needs to be added to the Staff proposal to handle that, but either way, hardcores get to hardcore all month long, as casuals get to casual all month long. No one forces hardcores to rotate their split of the mobs, nor the FFA epics. Hardcores get their classic experience, and casuals get their classic experience. If a casual guild wants to get the vast majority more mobs, and VP, then they can become tier 1 and compete, because that's what they want to do.

I don't see the issue here. So far, in all my posts, no one has pointed out what is wrong by giving everyone their classic experience as the Staff Proposal does.

[Raavak]

The proposed system is no anywhere near Classic anyway. In Classic Everquest 1 or 2 guilds dominated the end game and everyone else got little to nothing. Going away from this throws the whole "Classic" meme out the window already.

On E`ci at one point there was a public "pick up" Trakanon that started forming at the entrance in Sebilis. The dominant guild of the server got wind of this but didn't have a force on (this is pre-batphone remember) so they had like 2 rogues sneak down to near the lair and "claimed" they were going for Trak. The server GM said the public raid could not go down to Trak lair because they would be interferring with an ongoing raid (of 2 rogues). This was what REAL Classic was like.

[Babayaaga]

Originally Posted by Arteker [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

when there is no competition joroz , im the first to admit the hugue delay in velious have a impact in how the server developed.

i mean is very easy to blame , ib, tmo fe and bda in the end the truth this clusterfuck is due to lack of new things to people.


A prime example of this is my own guild tmo, at some point we lacked competition (wich started when tmo was FE and tmo was ib)and we turned into farm mode , people got bored and they levelñed alts, those alts of course are even more fun if they twink, so loot went to alts.
slowly guild decays but since remains realy uncontested guild get bloated(tmo never stoped to recruit, something hurted back in the IB).

Time pass and my guild only joy is competition if u look at the uncontested period pre FE tmo didint even half the strengh it had prior the froovy dupe and the following suspension.

suddenly FE rises and TMO is again in full road , good or bad the truth that kind of things keep the guild in motion.


whats the problem?FE suddenly have to deal and compete with alot of alts with good gear raid and motivated people , so its not like the TMO/IB first raid contest.


yes there is drama there is shit btw 2 guilds , im the first to admit i bashed people like tasslehoff and other FE members... list goes on.


but the thruth is suddenly we got cornered and when suspension was lifted fe ib tmo whre sittin at vp doors in a new scenario of competition, how it would have worked?.

i got no idea would have been fun to dicover once the 3 guild zoned into vp.


Now the drama is wich direction is the server rogean going to take . because there will be a fallout whatever rogean decision takes.

I think this is the first honest breakdown I've seen from a TMO member of their timeline and how they got to this point.

Any guild can be poisoned by one or two players. We are all vulnerable to this possibility. On that note it's not fair to call any guild out by the actions of a few (or many) players. Players should be dealt with on a situational basis.

I have only been on P99 for 6 months. I'm an example of a person who wants to "earn my way". I aligned myself with players who fit my personal life situation, playstyle and objectives that carried a reputation that I value - BDA.

I'm an example of "the newer player". I know of two TMO members that started within the same week that I did. I know that those two people have the same goals that I have. We levelled up together and I call them close friends (/wave Ereni and Fabben). As such I can speak on their character with utter honesty, and these two are examples of some of the most generous and loyal friends I have made in any game. They are also experienced players who are very good at whatever encounter they challenge from what I have seen. They aren't looking for handouts, they want to earn their way like I do. TMO is lucky to have them.

This is why the current ruleset as proposed by Sirken and Derubel doesn't fit. Both T1 and T2 guilds have Vintage players who experienced the timeline Arteker has described honestly and without malice. Both guilds have newer players they need to equip in preparation for Velious.

Splitting any guild between separate Tiers of content is going to cause issues within every guild because of this reason. Growth of our server's population is why we are faced with this challenge. Older (geared) players have left and many may never return. You need to refresh your forces to remain competitive. If you can't adequately gear those forces up because you are prevented access to content by server rulesets, then you create a new problem.

If we were to continue with the ruleset that Sirken/Derubel presented, the only "fix" I could see emerging would be existing guilds splitting their own guilds into "tiers" - Major and Minor. Once you have attained all Minor gear (Planar, Trak Dragon, Epic, Vox/Naggy), you would progress on to Major (VP). This dynamic would change on launch of Velious, but the structure would be similar. New players in minor guilds would be fighting alongside the Alts of players in the Major contingent (as well as their DKP).

There are several guilds that have the ability to make this split right now. If you counted the members of guildtags with players waiting to for the simulated repops, you would identify at least 6 guilds capable of doing this right now. This is why I am certain that something like this would develop eventually... out of sheer necessity.

The downside of that solution is that you don't really solve the problem that we are faced with right now. Minor guild types would inherit the same playstyles and mindsets and the problem we face today would be re-created, probably within a month's time. Tier 2 would suddenly have double the amount of guilds to contend with, including the new and emerging guilds as well as the new Minor guilds as outlined above. The same could happen in Tier 1, as Tier 2 guilds complete their requirements and move on to their major contingent in Tier 1.

Splitting content into Tiers is merely a band-aid, it isn't a fix. The players would find a solution that would allow them to compete in both arenas somehow. The true problem is that we still don't have enough content to meet demand... until Velious.

The only thing I liked about Sirken's and Derubel's solution were the rules that were outlined in regards to alt armies, poopsocking, training, etc. It is the behaviour of the few that needs to be changed. I say few, because douchebag behaviour is the exeption, not the rule. Whomever a douchebag aligns with is going to be smeared by their behaviour. Tolerance of that behaviour perhaps was another one of TMO's problems, but that's not for me to judge.

In terms of rotations, I can't really see any other way to empower everyone to have a fair shot at content until Velious comes out. It has been proven during TMO's ban that there are enough guilds that are capable of taking down this content, the only thing that prevented them perviously was disdain for the behaviour of other guilds in the competition arena. If that behaviour is adjusted, perhaps rotations aren't required, but there is a lot of anti-trust right now because of historical events.

[Uteunayr]

Originally Posted by Raavak [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The proposed system is no anywhere near Classic anyway. In Classic Everquest 1 or 2 guilds dominated the end game and everyone else got little to nothing. Going away from this throws the whole "Classic" meme out the window already.

Rotations are a part of classic, just as is hardcore cutthroat competition. We are in an age in which we have insanely greater information than we did in Classic, and we have a lot more 60s on the server than we did in Classic. Much of this isn't classic, but what is P1999 for other than to let people try to relive the glory days that was the greatest time in MMO history? To see the content again, to play the game they loved again that SoE shattered.

Let the casuals have their classic, let the hardcores have their classic. The Staff Proposal allows for this, and it is why I would be arguing to defend the hardcores right for competition if they had to go into a forced rotation.

[Daldaen]

Originally Posted by Raavak [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Why doesn't the staff just make all boss mobs spawnable with some token the guild leader gets. The trigger mobs respawn in hours. The guildleader gets new tokens every so often to start raids. That way guilds can raid when and where and how often they want to. And there is little to no competition, training, monopolization... it seems like this is where we are headed anyway.

Then also have random FFA spawns... less than we have now but have them... so that there still is a little racing, a little competition, for those that want to take part.

All this mob sharing stuff is so Un-Classic already why not just completely change the way it all is done.

Better solution would be to kill Red99 and move anyone who deems raid competition as the most fun thing and waking up at 3AM to kill a dragon to be a good use of their time, over to that competition server. Have some PnP with a rotation on the casual server. Any guild that appears out of the blue and tried to F with the rotation gets their toons punted to competition server.

I don't see any scenario where casuals are happy and where hardcores are happy. There will be posts "QQ casuals are getting the same pixels as me without having to track for 24hrs" or "QQ 95% of the raid content is monopolized by 2 guilds consistent of probably 200 people of the probably 2500~ on this server". If the status quo changes the first comment will continually be posted by the same people that have been posting that for week. If it changes the 2nd comment will be posted by the same people that have been posting that for weeks.

The only thing that will calm people down is splitting the groups of people via two different servers or completely eliminating a group of people either by forcing them to comply with whatever change is made, and banning those who don't comply.

[Rooj]

I don't know why people think there shouldn't be any competition for raid mobs on P99. This is what older MMOs were all about when it came to open world raiding, especially Everquest. Part of that competition is SUPPOSED to come from knowing the TOD. Mobilizing efficiently and quicker than other players is supposed to be a part of the encounter. The obvious problem is that 29374234987 alts are logged off at each raid mob. This wasn't an issue in 1999. This is the kind of thing that we need to be figuring out a fix for.

[Uteunayr]

Originally Posted by Rooj [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't know why people think there shouldn't be any competition for raid mobs on P99. This is what older MMOs were all about when it came to open world raiding, especially Everquest. Part of that competition is SUPPOSED to come from knowing the TOD. Mobilizing efficiently and quicker than other players is supposed to be a part of the encounter. The obvious problem is that 29374234987 alts are logged off at each raid mob. This wasn't an issue in 1999. This is the kind of thing that we need to be figuring out a fix for.

Are there really that many people saying there shouldn't be any competition? I don't hear anyone advocating a forced rotation upon everyone on the server, in the same way I hear people advocating more cutthroat hardcore raiding upon people on the server.

The Staff proposal lets each side play their way, with their share of the toys. Competitive guilds get the majority of mobs, including VP to themselves, and casuals get to create their own style, be it friendly competition between one another, or through rotations between one another, which only introduces different challenges of diplomacy and alliance maintenance.

Both styles are classic, but on different servers. The server can be split in a reasonable way to allow both sides to play the style they like. Awesome. I don't see the issue.

[chief]

Everyone seems to think during classic eq every server had a rotation and loot fell out of the sky. This wasn't the case for many servers where 1-3 guilds would kill everything and the only time you got a mob was when a new expansion came out and the 1-3 guilds moved on to that.

[Uteunayr]

Originally Posted by chief [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Everyone seems to think during classic eq every server had a rotation and loot fell out of the sky. This wasn't the case for many servers where 1-3 guilds would kill everything and the only time you got a mob was when a new expansion came out and the 1-3 guilds moved on to that.

Who? I haven't heard anyone advocating full, forced server wide rotations. The casuals have widely been behind Rogean's plan, as it lets hardcores play their classic style amongst themselves, and casuals play their classic style amongst themselves. While no, not every server was friendly raiding, or rotation based, nor was every server hardcore competition. We can be inclusive to both.

[Raavak]

Originally Posted by Uteunayr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Rotations are a part of classic

Never saw 1 rotation in Classic. And I played 1999-2006 or so.

Originally Posted by Daldaen

I don't see any scenario where casuals are happy and where hardcores are happy.

Because I don't think its possible. Both ends want opposite things. I thought the "formerly approved" plan was about as close as you could get because it had 2 rule sets within the greater whole. Unfortunately we are now headed for a system where no one is happy.

Originally Posted by Chief

Everyone seems to think during classic eq every server had a rotation and loot fell out of the sky. This wasn't the case for many servers where 1-3 guilds would kill everything and the only time you got a mob was when a new expansion came out and the 1-3 guilds moved on to that.

This was Classic.