OFFICIAL PROPOSAL from FE/TMO

[Lazie]

Originally Posted by Hitpoint [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I bet they enjoyed that Talendor kill a hell of a lot more than if they logged in at 6:00 pm, strolled into SF, got full buffs, perfect groups set up, prepped and planned the pull, and burned down a 32k mob in 20 seconds with zerg numbers. We were there watching and I have it on fraps. They were rushed, under pressure, shit happened that probably was not planned, and they got the kill anyway. It was epic, and I bet it felt that way.

I know that Sev kill was hectic and funner for me than anything we have killed this week. Had to pull it instantly and hope the people were there when it arrived and they barely were. Heck a lot of folks weren't buffed and getting dragon feared because the competition didn't give time for it. Was just fun. Now not saying the system is perfect but there are moments like that Sev Kill for FE and Tal Kill for BDA I guarantee those guilds felt they accomplished something more.

[Troubled]

Originally Posted by Hitpoint [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I bet they enjoyed that Talendor kill a hell of a lot more than if they logged in at 6:00 pm, strolled into SF, got full buffs, perfect groups set up, prepped and planned the pull, and burned down a 32k mob in 20 seconds with zerg numbers. We were there watching and I have it on fraps. They were rushed, under pressure, shit happened that probably was not planned, and they got the kill anyway. It was epic, and I bet it felt that way.

Aside from the satisfaction of downing Trak and CT for the first time in quite a while, Talendor was my favorite kill of the week and I appreciated the support from FE and IB after the fight, and lolled at the massive SF train that rubberbanded on us. The mission here is not to only cater to people who choose to play like that, however.

[Fuddwin]

Originally Posted by Lazie [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

When guilds try they get mobs.

[Magicant]

The only real solution to the raid scene is to limit the number of players that can engage a raid boss. 25 people.

or

Instances.

[Fuddwin]

Originally Posted by Troubled [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Aside from the satisfaction of downing Trak and CT for the first time in quite a while, Talendor was my favorite kill of the week and I appreciated the support from FE and IB after the fight, and lolled at the massive SF train that rubberbanded on us. The mission here is not to only cater to people who choose to play like that, however.

OMGZ!! BDA got Trak/CT/Tal!!! Too many targets... Seriously though... Gratz...

[Lammy]

Sometimes i think you get carried away for the sake of arguing. Did you not read the portion of my post where it clearly states that I know first hand some people need epics? That would be referencing myself. I do not have an epic on my mage, and haven't found it necessary to gripe about it either in guild, in game, or publicly. Hats off to 'Taken' for their dedication on monopolizing inny.

I could name many mains still needing epics in our guild and my argument is more so in their defense than for me selfishly. I've come to terms with my mage epic happening with velious revamps, just like everyone else not willing to put forth the effort should be.

How about them apples Loraen? My TMO tagged main (and other mains) doesn't have an epic because its cockblocked by another guilds efforts and I'm still willing to advocate that it should be effort=reward.

Just for the record to discredit your statistics... alde does not wield his epic.

I love how the argument of 4th alt needing epics instantly transforms into now "well the majority of your mains have it." So the argument is still valid. Heh. Does tmo sell raid drops? Sure they do, because excess items are a result of farming to get the drops we do need. Unfotunately we don't get to pick what the dragon drops each time.

Originally Posted by Splorf22 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I would be shocked if even 10% of TMO raiding mains still need their epics. For kicks, I went to the TMO page and sorted by name.

Aalamar: yes
Aalpha: yes
Alarti: yes
Alde: no idea
Ascention: yes
Atmas: yes
Baxter: yes
Benjaman: recruit with 9 dkp
Bialar: yes
Biggslick: yes
Bitie: rogue so he fucking better have one
Butchh: yes
Carrina: recruit
Catterine: only 95% sure but putting her down as yes
Cecily: yes
Chief: yes
Citizen: shaman, so . . yeah
Cyryllis: yes
Darkdeath: yes
Deathproof: yes

And after 20 names I got tired. 17/20 confirmed to have epics, and two of those remaining are recruits. And probably Alde (the 5%!) has one or at least some VP weapons. So I'm thinking that isn't so great for your argument there Fabben . . . and then I realized . . . I bet *you* don't have your epic! Cause Taken has been socking Inny hard lately and the earth staff is pretty rare. And now its obvious why you are taking the positions you do.

P.S. That being said, Winga's position is silly because it would never allow TMO to recruit anyone new.

[BillyCranston]

Originally Posted by Ella`Ella [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If they became a significant raid presence, they would gain representation.

Nice of you to decide what is significant enough. All of these proposals are jokes. Yes people aren't just throwing casual raids together, but if a few guilds wanted to get together without sitting around to write the Magna Carta for an alliance, and then submit the proper C-109 form to you or whoever else thinks they have the right to say someone else's force is a "raid presence" or not, and raid somewhere, who are you to tell them they need to sit around and fill out forms and plead their case?

[Razdeline]

Originally Posted by BillyCranston [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Nice of you to decide what is significant enough. All of these proposals are jokes. Yes people aren't just throwing casual raids together, but if a few guilds wanted to get together without sitting around to write the Magna Carta for an alliance, and then submit the proper C-109 form to you or whoever else thinks they have the right to say someone else's force is a "raid presence" or not, and raid somewhere, who are you to tell them they need to sit around and fill out forms and plead their case?

Raid forces that are viable, keyed, and put in more hours are deemed a top tier raid force. This has been something that is known for years. Put in the work, the trackers, etc. and you would be 'deemed' on the same level.

Unfortunately everyone can not do this. It is hard to reach ultimate commitment, but honestly, if every guild on the server had every mob split evenly you may as well form one guild, name it the zerg, and everyone will get a needed mob once or so a month.

To me(and I think the majority), people would want to have competition, but be on a more balanced playing field. The goal from Rogean here was to eliminate mob monopolies. TMO grew to a cancerous state on the server, rule lawyering and training people in acceptable zones, leapfrogging, alt armies, etc. An up and comming guild would have no chance of reasonable and fun competition against them.

The idea is, I should be able to put in the same amount of work in guild 'a' that guild 'b' does to achieve the same accomplishments. I just hope these folks from lower teir guilds realize this, you need to actually show up and put in the time for you're gear. In the current raid situation, it really just goes down to being the first person tracking to notify and mobilize a raid force to win. Everything in this game is trivial at best. (Velious will be different)

[YendorLootmonkey]

Originally Posted by Hitpoint [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You are assuming that BDA and Taken will never get a mob on the other two weeks of the month. They already do now. They lock down Vox and Inny. BDA beat us to Talendor just yesterday. And we were more than happy about it. Because that's what we've wanted to see. Another guild at least trying. They could have had Sev easily if their FTEer had hit him first, pure coinflip. BDA got FTE on Druushk and got him to 50%, with one more bard he'd have probably been dead. Taken got last VS.

You would have valid points if TMO were not to return to raiding going forward. You know as well as the rest of us that many of the instances you're talking about happened because TMO is currently on a raid suspension, especially the Druushk attempt, which means those other guilds only had to compete against FE/IB. And in some cases not even then, because of the "if you killed it last, you have to wait two hours to engage" rule we're using during these two weeks. So statements like yours above are a little disingenuous.

You know what you're overlooking about all these different agreements? We (tmo and fe/IB) are not allowed to compete with other guilds on their time, while they are absolutely allowed to compete with us. We could break up with IB, or BDA could step up onto our tier, or TMO could fucking shut us down and we don't get anything. It's not just 2 or 3 guilds sharing for those two weeks, more competition can appear for us. In short, we aren't guaranteed any number of mobs like you seem to think. And frankly I'm fine with that as long as we have a chance to get a decent number, and two weeks is not enough. That's why I don't like Divinity's proposal. Because it kills competition instead of foster it.

You turn 180 degrees in this paragraph. At first, you're worried about extra competition during the last half of the month under Divinity's proposal. By the end of the paragraph, you're saying it kills competition.

Do you honestly think that if BDA or Taken or Divinity is getting the mobs they would like to gear up from in the first half of the month under Divinity's proposal that they are going to suddenly expend more effort than they did prior to TMO's current raid suspension to compete at TMO and FE/IB's level for most of those mobs during the last half of the month? If anything, it is relieving pressure off TMO/FE/IB during the FFA part of the month. Or did you want more competition during that part of the month? I can't tell anymore.

Yeah, non-TMO/FE/IB guilds get mobs when they "try". During the last two weeks "try" has meant a lot less effort than "trying" while TMO was involved and there was no "can't engage for two hours if you killed it last" gentleman's agreement.

Originally Posted by Hitpoint [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I"ll be honest. It looks like Taken and BDA and whoever else are simply trying to squeeze more out of this situation because the GMs gave you the power to do so. Your right, raid suspension hurts the big guilds more. And yes, GMs want a unanimous agreement from all guilds.

Let's imagine that we weren't threatened with a raid suspension and this current proposal was posted. People would go fucking INSANE for it. Big guilds said they are willing to give up tons of targets every month, including 1/4th of the ones they want the most. Guilds that were previously getting nothing, can get multiple targets weekly. They can set up a rotation between themselves if they don't want to do any work. That's left up to them. And still allowed to compete with the top guilds if they choose to. Nothing even close to this has ever been on the table. It would be accepted without a second thought, there would be no holding out for MORE. Want some inside info? This agreement was drafted and posted on our boards for review a day before Sirken's threat. Our officers didn't come up with this because they had the threat of a suspension looming. They actually wanted to make the raid scene better. And you all shit on it like this, just because you can. Imo threatening the server was a mistake, and now this is all so messy and hateful when it doesn't need to be.

I will grant you that FE/IB is kind of caught in this crossfire and is getting the raw end of the deal for choosing to expend the amount of effort/time it took to "compete" against TMO. But the truth is that nothing was stopping TMO from putting together something like this within the last two years. Sure, they launched an "endangered species" campaign as a bone to throw out to everyone else now and then, but nothing that would be considered along the lines as "game changing for the entire server." So yes, it DID take what Rogean did to get this process started, and to ensure it didn't just involve "extreme hardcore raid guilds just throwing out a few more bones."

[Hitpoint]

Yendor I think that this is the beginning of those guilds actually competing with TMO more. Yes tmo is suspended now, but they will only be weaker when they get off suspension. They definitely haven't gained in strength. And if guilds are willing to compete with us then they should be confident competing with new tmo as well.

Now I don't have much to compare with, because of the two hour hands off rule, but there are three instances which I think show that these guilds can and should compete even with TMO back. First is Taken killing VS. FTE on VS is no different if IB/FE is allowed to engage, or if TMO is in the picture. If Taken got VS while BDA was there, then they can get it while anyone is there. At least they don't have any more chance than we do. It's very coinflippy. Same thing with Sev, FTE coinflip which bda could have had. You beat us to Tal, which is a mob that we consistently beat TMO to. There is zero reason why you guys shouldn't continue, and improve. And even if you don't think so, in my opinion we'll be seeing a lot more of it. Also, I think getting these mobs during the free weeks will only motivate and serve as practice for racing.