Bandwagon Proposal Thread.

[Handull]

Originally Posted by Autotune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I got it, keep it the way it is and then make it so that on repops CAT A guilds must clear VP first before competing for nonVP targets.

since we haven't seen a server repop with two tier a guilds and no training in vp, i can't say for sure, but i'd bet fe/ib and tmo would start in vp at least for PD, and then likely keep pulling mobs in there, unless we already had a force camped at some other target that we could log in quickly after PD died, and then resume VP mobs.

[BlkCamel]

Originally Posted by Sinestria [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

A compromise would be "tier A will sit out on x amount of VS and x amount of CT". The compromise is that you get to 100% compete in all Trak kills (continued blocking of VP entry)

This proposal is great because it is simple and easy to follow. I understand the above arguments about VP, but it is the highest of raiding in Classic/Kunark. Why not treat it as such? But, if we are going to do this you cannot lock guilds from gaining access to VP.

You must concede some VP Key mobs to Tier B guilds. You have to give them a chance to get keyed and compete, but once they do they are recognized as a top raiding guild when they get a VP kill. 30 days elevated status is not a game-breaker. If they decide they cannot compete they will be right back at Tier B.



I implore everyone to accept this offer. It is simple and practical.

[uygi]

NOT what the thread is about, but I'll go Loraen style and drop my solution anyways. The idea of variance, and by extension the silly extended windows (which actually overall increase the mean spawn time beyond 3/7 days!) has outlived its usefulness and been taken farther than it ever should have. The system to avoid known spawn times needs to be redone, and the obvious solution is a mean-spawns-per-month system where any mob can pop at any time, but on average every 3/7 days as appropriate. Guilds are forced to prioritize their tracking targets, and especially within the framework of some kind sharing agreement with a time-to-engage provision it really prevents tracking from being particularly more onerous than it is now.

[Alarti0001]

Originally Posted by Sinestria [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

A compromise would be "tier A will sit out on x amount of VS and x amount of CT". The compromise is that you get to 100% compete in all Trak kills (continued blocking of VP entry)

The compromise is a 1000% increase in Mob availability to the casuals.

[Alarti0001]

Originally Posted by Handull [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The one thing you are missing Alarti, is GMs need to also drastically shorten the mob windows. If GMs really want to support the player base, they should even make the server-agreed-rotation mobs variance free, and make the competitive mobs have variance (obviously there is no easy fix button for this, but it wouldn't be too much work). They should keep the extended window feature, to continue to help curb the urge to late window sock (if you truly know the last possible spawn time, its hard to not want to sock the last few minutes). If we are really serious about agreeing not to poopsock and DA stall, than there is no reason to have such long variance. If a 7day repop mob had a 24 hour total variance window, many other guilds would be able to track and compete for it, and mobs like Trakanon would have even short windows, making them even more appealing. Allowing the guilds that just want free loot to get *some* free loot (notably more than they are getting now), and making it worthwhile for other guilds to start tracking. If they do that, and we all agree to something similar to your OP, then we can all have fun for the relatively short time we have to wait for Velious.

GMs have put into place so many insane roadblocks that prevent guilds from getting along. 3(?) years of Kunark, 96+hour windows for raid mobs, etc. If we are really going to agree to play nice, they need to drastically reduce variance so other guilds can actually compete. Telling another guild to come compete on CT right now is insane due to the learning curve of the encounter and the long time commitment just to see his name on Track, let alone try to mobilize and get a shot at the mob.

With the current system, any non-rotation mobs that FE/IB and TMO agree not to engage will almost surely go to BDA, who is the next biggest guild and has the greatest ability to track a mob for 96+hours straight. (notice I said 'non-rotation' mobs)

BDA has mentioned rotations many times in the past. Now is there chance to live up to that. If not we can add a stipulation to the Tier B mobs, maybe kill limits etc. That is entirely up to Tier B raiders to decide.

[Alarti0001]

Originally Posted by Sinestria [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You chose to "compete" with them, that's on you. Asking for 50% of VS pops for the majority of the server to compete on is not unreasonable.

Asking for VS to be 100% competitive when a 1000% increase in raid mobs is already on the table isn't at all unreasonable either.

[Handull]

Originally Posted by uygi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

NOT what the thread is about, but I'll go Loraen style and drop my solution anyways. The idea of variance, and by extension the silly extended windows (which actually overall increase the mean spawn time beyond 3/7 days!) has outlived its usefulness and been taken farther than it ever should have. The system to avoid known spawn times needs to be redone, and the obvious solution is a mean-spawns-per-month system where any mob can pop at any time, but on average every 3/7 days as appropriate. Guilds are forced to prioritize their tracking targets, and especially within the framework of some kind sharing agreement with a time-to-engage provision it really prevents tracking from being particularly more onerous than it is now.

it has to be what this thread is about. variance forces guilds to either compete like fe/ib and tmo are competing right now, cut throat and no one else has a chance, or it forces the server into a rotation with 10+ guilds fighting over 10+ mobs. if every mob was always in window, it would just push guilds to grow bigger and track more. sure, you wouldn't always camp out mobs for sev anymore, but just a few camped out pullers and great mobilization, combined with round the clock tracking, would make you #1. it wouldn't be some magical rule that let guilds just find mobs up randomly and kill them at their leisure.

bad attitudes caused the gm's to bring about variance, and variance ended up making everything very cutthroat and hardcore, splitting the server. do away with it, and there won't be times when a guild needs to have 7 people tracking at once to have a shot at getting kills.

[Autotune]

Originally Posted by Handull [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

since we haven't seen a server repop with two tier a guilds and no training in vp, i can't say for sure, but i'd bet fe/ib and tmo would start in vp at least for PD, and then likely keep pulling mobs in there, unless we already had a force camped at some other target that we could log in quickly after PD died, and then resume VP mobs.

Then there should be no problem agreeing with this.

It needs to be a rule.

[Alarti0001]

Originally Posted by BlkCamel [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This proposal is great because it is simple and easy to follow. I understand the above arguments about VP, but it is the highest of raiding in Classic/Kunark. Why not treat it as such? But, if we are going to do this you cannot lock guilds from gaining access to VP.

You must concede some VP Key mobs to Tier B guilds. You have to give them a chance to get keyed and compete, but once they do they are recognized as a top raiding guild when they get a VP kill. 30 days elevated status is not a game-breaker. If they decide they cannot compete they will be right back at Tier B.



I implore everyone to accept this offer. It is simple and practical.

They have every chance to kill trakanon competitively to compete.

[Spitty]

Variance was a solution because nothing like this current discussion has ever happened, or been fruitful, between p99 raiders.

It would stand to reason that if an agreement was successfully hashed out and put into place, then variance could be removed. Variance = less mobs, no variance and an agreement = more mobs (1000%, apparently) for everyone.

Yay?