First to Engage: Exploiting the mechanic?

[Alarti0001]

Originally Posted by Mezzmur [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I knew the original waves of MQ2 were individual but could've swore there were some raid suspensions involved with SEQ. No matter, I stand corrected. I thought that was an example of a individual getting a guild on the bench for a period of time. 2011 was long ago...

Some guy in DA got his guild raid suspended for using SEQ in like LGUK or something

[Alarti0001]

Originally Posted by Jaxon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you have enough fraps evidence the GMs will punish TMO for training and have done so in the past. The fact that they continue to train means that the punishment they're getting when they get caught probably isn't harsh enough to deter them.

Or that we aren't training

[Elements]

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The issue with everything is that people cannot act like civilized adults. Let's look at BDA's Vox kill yesterday as a simple example.

We (BDA) were first on the scene and began the civilized process of clearing towards Vox. TMO shows up, leapfrogs our raid force, trains everything before Vox + plus her lair out and onto our force and immediately engages Vox. We were forced to camp out our raid force and TMO wiped to adds or something. We recovered from our partial wipe and beat the dragon. I don't really care if TMO's train out strat was "accidentally" dropped on our force or as they would obviously claim we shouldn't have been in their way.

So how do you stop that behavior with rule implementation? We managed to persevere through this round of bullshit, but for every one minor raid kill we get there's another 10 incidents where this exact same type of thing happens. We need rules to address that type of behavior, the attitude that as long as the mob is alive a guild can/will do anything possible to score the kill. The punishments are not severe enough to deter the behavior. Even if we caught the accidental train red handed with some 1080p fraps and two forms of ID that one alt might get suspended for a week, it doesn't stop the machine.

We need some type of play nice policy and we need it enforced. The current mindset is "do whatever it takes" and I've even told by staff numerous times that if we don't like what TMO does to us then we should do it right back to them. Some of us want to maintain some sense of decency and decorum. We shouldn't have to lie/cheat/steal/train and pretend it's tantamount to competition. Knowing how to dodge enemy trains (in places where it's actually illegal no less) shouldn't be a condition of raiding on this server.

I don't want to poopsock, I don't even want a rotation at this point (although I see nothing wrong with it) I only want to be able to engage a target without getting trained EVERY single time. This is possible, but TMO would actually have to act like adults. Every other guild has said at one point or another that they would agree to some simple rules of engagement but TMO refuses. 10% of the server population is dictating how raiding is to be done by everyone else. We've seen Divinity move on Dojo and given them some space to make an engage, or even when it was other guilds banding together to take a shot at Naggy we didn't immediately go to leapfrog and train giants out and OOPS sorry we didn't mean to train your raid accidentally because we desperately needed FTE.

There's nothing wrong with treating others like humans and trying to show some fucking decency.

And yet BDA is not against doing this and worse to others. Example: Ragefire few nights back Nizzler and I are buffing up to hand in pearl to ragefire. BDA monk trains FGs on us gets us killed. As we are rezzing up bout two grousp of BDA show up, another monk (Pullyn or something?) trains in more FGs and kills us again (this is BDA wiping us twice now to trains in an attempt to leapfrog us). So BDA rushes a pearl hand in and wipes to ragefire and even more fire giants. Having lost their claim to a mob since they wiped and its been some time since the spawn we engage human form ragefire. BDA then jumps in to KS once he is at ~70% effectively committing raid interference by spawning the dragon on us and KSing human form. But not to worry, BDA wipes YET AGAIN and us in the process. We recover, pull dragon form, kill before they can recover for the win.

Point being after training twice, kill stealing, raid interfering, and shit talking, BDA thinks they have done nothing wrong and have been wronged in the process. You should know this Chest you were there. Sorry guys but for people I used to roll with you sure show no respect. The kicker here is that I have fraps of the whole thing.

[Itap]

Originally Posted by Elements [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

And yet BDA is not against doing this and worse to others. Example: Ragefire few nights back Nizzler and I are buffing up to hand in pearl to ragefire. BDA monk trains FGs on us gets us killed. As we are rezzing up bout two grousp of BDA show up, another monk (Pullyn or something?) trains in more FGs and kills us again (this is BDA wiping us twice now to trains in an attempt to leapfrog us). So BDA rushes a pearl hand in and wipes to ragefire and even more fire giants. Having lost their claim to a mob since they wiped and its been some time since the spawn we engage human form ragefire. BDA then jumps in to KS once he is at ~70% effectively committing raid interference by spawning the dragon on us and KSing human form. But not to worry, BDA wipes YET AGAIN and us in the process. We recover, pull dragon form, kill before they can recover for the win.

Point being after training twice, kill stealing, raid interfering, and shit talking, BDA thinks they have done nothing wrong and have been wronged in the process. Sorry guys but for people I used to roll with you sure show no respect. The kicker here is that I have fraps of the whole thing.

It's called fighting fire with fire.

[Llodd]

Originally Posted by Itap [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's called fighting fire with fire.

All I'm getting is that to be a guild leader/raid leader/officer on p1999 is to be a tool.

Why does every thread degenerate into this bickering shite? (no need to answer that)

[Itap]

Originally Posted by Llodd [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

All I'm getting is that to be a guild leader/raid leader/officer on p1999 is to be a tool.

Why does every thread degenerate into this bickering shite? (no need to answer that)

Three words, The Mystical Order.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The issue with everything is that people cannot act like civilized adults. Let's look at BDA's Vox kill yesterday as a simple example.

We (BDA) were first on the scene and began the civilized process of clearing towards Vox. TMO shows up, leapfrogs our raid force, trains everything before Vox + plus her lair out and onto our force and immediately engages Vox. We were forced to camp out our raid force and TMO wiped to adds or something. We recovered from our partial wipe and beat the dragon. I don't really care if TMO's train out strat was "accidentally" dropped on our force or as they would obviously claim we shouldn't have been in their way.

So how do you stop that behavior with rule implementation? We managed to persevere through this round of bullshit, but for every one minor raid kill we get there's another 10 incidents where this exact same type of thing happens. We need rules to address that type of behavior, the attitude that as long as the mob is alive a guild can/will do anything possible to score the kill. The punishments are not severe enough to deter the behavior. Even if we caught the accidental train red handed with some 1080p fraps and two forms of ID that one alt might get suspended for a week, it doesn't stop the machine.

We need some type of play nice policy and we need it enforced. The current mindset is "do whatever it takes" and I've even told by staff numerous times that if we don't like what TMO does to us then we should do it right back to them. Some of us want to maintain some sense of decency and decorum. We shouldn't have to lie/cheat/steal/train and pretend it's tantamount to competition. Knowing how to dodge enemy trains (in places where it's actually illegal no less) shouldn't be a condition of raiding on this server.

I don't want to poopsock, I don't even want a rotation at this point (although I see nothing wrong with it) I only want to be able to engage a target without getting trained EVERY single time. This is possible, but TMO would actually have to act like adults. Every other guild has said at one point or another that they would agree to some simple rules of engagement but TMO refuses. 10% of the server population is dictating how raiding is to be done by everyone else. We've seen Divinity move on Dojo and given them some space to make an engage, or even when it was other guilds banding together to take a shot at Naggy we didn't immediately go to leapfrog and train giants out and OOPS sorry we didn't mean to train your raid accidentally because we desperately needed FTE.

There's nothing wrong with treating others like humans and trying to show some fucking decency.

tl? dr?

In many ways, eq is ffa. But leapfrogging is never cool. That should actually be a rule, I think. It is not ambiguous. Not all encounters can be leapfrogged, but those that can, I would like to see someone defend it.

Whether it can be policed is another matter. One guild's complain is another guild's "we both got there at the same time."

But you know it when it happens. I always hated basterds who thought stuff like that was good gameplay. It's not. It's weak.