First to Engage: Exploiting the mechanic?

arsenalpow · #1 11-06-2013, 11:56 AM

The issue with everything is that people cannot act like civilized adults. Let's look at BDA's Vox kill yesterday as a simple example.

We (BDA) were first on the scene and began the civilized process of clearing towards Vox. TMO shows up, leapfrogs our raid force, trains everything before Vox + plus her lair out and onto our force and immediately engages Vox. We were forced to camp out our raid force and TMO wiped to adds or something. We recovered from our partial wipe and beat the dragon. I don't really care if TMO's train out strat was "accidentally" dropped on our force or as they would obviously claim we shouldn't have been in their way.

So how do you stop that behavior with rule implementation? We managed to persevere through this round of bullshit, but for every one minor raid kill we get there's another 10 incidents where this exact same type of thing happens. We need rules to address that type of behavior, the attitude that as long as the mob is alive a guild can/will do anything possible to score the kill. The punishments are not severe enough to deter the behavior. Even if we caught the accidental train red handed with some 1080p fraps and two forms of ID that one alt might get suspended for a week, it doesn't stop the machine.

We need some type of play nice policy and we need it enforced. The current mindset is "do whatever it takes" and I've even told by staff numerous times that if we don't like what TMO does to us then we should do it right back to them. Some of us want to maintain some sense of decency and decorum. We shouldn't have to lie/cheat/steal/train and pretend it's tantamount to competition. Knowing how to dodge enemy trains (in places where it's actually illegal no less) shouldn't be a condition of raiding on this server.

I don't want to poopsock, I don't even want a rotation at this point (although I see nothing wrong with it) I only want to be able to engage a target without getting trained EVERY single time. This is possible, but TMO would actually have to act like adults. Every other guild has said at one point or another that they would agree to some simple rules of engagement but TMO refuses. 10% of the server population is dictating how raiding is to be done by everyone else. We've seen Divinity move on Dojo and given them some space to make an engage, or even when it was other guilds banding together to take a shot at Naggy we didn't immediately go to leapfrog and train giants out and OOPS sorry we didn't mean to train your raid accidentally because we desperately needed FTE.

There's nothing wrong with treating others like humans and trying to show some fucking decency.

Rellapse35 · #2 11-06-2013, 11:57 AM

tldr go outside

Jaxon · #3 11-06-2013, 12:10 PM

If you have enough fraps evidence the GMs will punish TMO for training and have done so in the past. The fact that they continue to train means that the punishment they're getting when they get caught probably isn't harsh enough to deter them.

If I were in TMO's shoes I'd look at it this way. We showed up late and BDA is engaging soon. If we don't train and engage now we'll lose the mob and get no loot for sure. If we train we have a chance to get FTE and the kill. The gm's won't punish us unless they get fraps evidence from BDA. Even if we get caught, it's not like they're going to kick us out of VP for training Vox. All we'll get is a slap on the wrist so it's worth it to take a chance and train.

The punishments need to ramp up exponentially every time. It's going to take a multi-month all-target raid suspension with the prospect of a year-long ban on the horizon before TMO stops pulling shenanigans like that.

arsenalpow · #4 11-06-2013, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaxon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you have enough fraps evidence the GMs will punish TMO for training and have done so in the past. The fact that they continue to train means that the punishment they're getting when they get caught probably isn't harsh enough to deter them.

If I were in TMO's shoes I'd look at it this way. We showed up late and BDA is engaging soon. If we don't train and engage now we'll lose the mob and get no loot for sure. If we train we have a chance to get FTE and the kill. The gm's won't punish us unless they get fraps evidence from BDA. Even if we get caught, all we'll get is a slap on the wrist so it's worth it to take a chance and train.

The punishments need to ramp up exponentially every time. It's going to take a multi-month all-target raid suspension with the prospect of a year-long ban on the horizon before TMO stops pulling shenanigans like that.

We had crystal clear fraps of Sentenza training us for a ragefire on his monk a while back We got another monthlong slap on the wrist to go with the previous 3 monthlong suspensions. It's ok though he just played a different account. The punishments need to scale as the infractions accumulate, it's the only way to end this type of behavior. Maybe someone from the TMO/FE/IB side of things can shed some light of the number of single character suspensions they've seen in the past 6 months for these types of infractions.

Yapas · #5 11-06-2013, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We had crystal clear fraps of Sentenza training us for a ragefire on his monk a while back We got another monthlong slap on the wrist to go with the previous 3 monthlong suspensions. It's ok though he just played a different account. The punishments need to scale as the infractions accumulate, it's the only way to end this type of behavior. Maybe someone from the TMO/FE/IB side of things can shed some light of the number of single character suspensions they've seen in the past 6 months for these types of infractions.

Just PM your guildmate err I mean GM Ambrotos! He is a big fan of TMO (lol)

Mezzmur · #6 11-06-2013, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaxon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The punishments need to ramp up exponentially every time. It's going to take a multi-month all-target raid suspension with the prospect of a year-long ban on the horizon before TMO stops pulling shenanigans like that.

Bans ramp up 7/14/28/.... days at a time.

I know of at least 3-4 people that have suspended on both sides and when this kind of stuff happens. If there is an issue with a whole raid or guild and it's fraps'd the GMs have also raid suspended an entire guild from all/some raid mobs as well.

I mean, back in 2011, I believe it was Perun who was suspended and TR suspended for using ShowEQ? (Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what I recall)

None of this is unheard of, if you feel you're wronged or you see people doing something wrong, put your petition in and let the GMs answer your petition. They can't be everywhere at once, but they do their damned hardest to make sure that everyone is on the same playing field.

arsenalpow · #7 11-06-2013, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mezzmur [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Bans ramp up 7/14/28/.... days at a time.

I know of at least 3-4 people that have suspended on both sides and when this kind of stuff happens. If there is an issue with a whole raid or guild and it's fraps'd the GMs have also raid suspended an entire guild from all/some raid mobs as well.

I mean, back in 2011, I believe it was Perun who was suspended and TR suspended for using ShowEQ? (Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what I recall)

None of this is unheard of, if you feel you're wronged or you see people doing something wrong, put your petition in and let the GMs answer your petition. They can't be everywhere at once, but they do their damned hardest to make sure that everyone is on the same playing field.

Single accounts and target specific suspensions need to eventually increase to guildwide raid suspensions. A single person can take one for the team and lose an account and it does not affect anything because of the accounts that most people have stacked up. This isn't a classic issue because back then Jeremy wasn't going to pay for 8 accounts, here he can have as many as he wants and park them wherever he wants. Losing one account is not an effective deterrent, the reward of loot outweighs the risk of losing one person from the zerg. Even losing a single shot at a mob isn't enough. It needs to scale up to losing the mob for month and then to full on guild suspensions.

Mezzmur · #8 11-06-2013, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Single accounts and target specific suspensions need to eventually increase to guildwide raid suspensions. A single person can take one for the team and lose an account and it does not affect anything because of the accounts that most people have stacked up. This isn't a classic issue because back then Jeremy wasn't going to pay for 8 accounts, here he can have as many as he wants and park them wherever he wants. Losing one account is not an effective deterrent, the reward of loot outweighs the risk of losing one person from the zerg. Even losing a single shot at a mob isn't enough. It needs to scale up to losing the mob for month and then to full on guild suspensions.

1.) I have no problem with this. If there's something f*cked up about a whole raid and we cost someone else something intentionally, sure, suspend us from that mob for a week or all mobs if it's bad enough. There's a precedent out there for that, it has happened for various reasons in the past. I think it's up to the GMs to decide where that line in the sand is and make sure everyone is clear on it, but you also can't always punish everyone for one person's behavior.

Last nights Vox was truly accidental and a cockup. We rushed, we lost, then you went in and we stood back and watched. GG.

2.) I appreciate your desire to say Zerg and peg TMO as some big machine. I've been around a long time and we do have a lot of members, but we also do a lot with a few. I've killed numerious VP dragons with 18-20 people, which is far from Zerg. We have a lot of toons and a lot of alts, but yeah, I don't think defamatory verbiage helps the conversation. There's a lot of good people here.

3.) As with previous comments, FRAPs everything and let the GMs do their honest best to help guide and prevent cheaters, sploiters etc. They do their best but can't be everywhere. I can't tell you the number of times I've been FD in a zone and been blamed for trains on Flippie when I haven't even moved. Shit happens and I use FRAPs as a defensive tool more than an offensive tool these days because people always assume the worst.

To the topic of the thread: ultimately, I believe there's a lot of people at the top with no expanding content (at this point) and Velious would help. I also believe that having a random simulated repop on some day every two weeks would be awesome. TMO can't be everywhere at once and you see the most "distribution of wealth" on days when there is a repop. Plus, then there's NO tracking for like 5 days, how f*cking sweet is that?!

Just don't make it every Tuesday, make it a random day so different player bases can experience it and 99% of all the nonsense goes away. (IMHO)

arsenalpow · #9 11-06-2013, 12:58 PM

The last guild wide suspension was TMO after Sentenza blatantly kited mobs in sky for TMOs efreeti raid which was issued by Amelinda. That's been over a year? If punishments should escalate why hasn't there been one since?

Mezzmur · #10 11-06-2013, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The last guild wide suspension was TMO after Sentenza blatantly kited mobs in sky for TMOs efreeti raid which was issued by Amelinda. That's been over a year? If punishments should escalate why hasn't there been one since?

You'd have to ask Sirken, but we were raid suspended from Inny during the Sericx incident even after the ruling was overturned.

Seems to me there's 3 levels of punishment.

Personal Suspension
Guild Target Suspension
All Raid Target Suspenion

Handing those out, I would imagine, is difficult and someone is always going to be upset, again, they're (GMs) doing their best with what they have when they have it. Relying on FRAPs isn't a perfect science, but they're a bunch of unpaid folks doing this on their own time.