Victim disarmament zones

[aowen]

Whether those programs were labeled the war on poverty is completely irrelevant.

"The New Deal was a series of domestic economic programs enacted in the United States between 1933 and 1936....The programs were in response to the Great Depression, and focused on what historians call the "3 Rs": Relief, Recovery, and Reform. That is Relief for the unemployed and poor; Recovery of the economy to normal levels; and Reform of the financial system to prevent a repeat depression.

[Ryba]

aowen is the only one in this thread that doesn't come off as a troll, a shameless redneck, a pedantic asshole or thoroughly discredited kagoturd. Forget about which side of the topic he is on, he is the only one bothering to substantiate claims. If I was new to this argument, I would immediately sympathize with the side that smelled less like self-righteousness, Skoal and unwashed asscrack.

lol at the whole "YOU SIGNED A SOCIAL CONTRACT!" argument. Like democracy isn't defined by being constantly in revision.

[Orruar]

Originally Posted by aowen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

See, again you can't say anything without throwing in an insult.

A fact may include things outside of stats, such as gun laws in the soviet union. However, it is not logical to conclude that the soviets were against guns while allowing their own party members to have them. I have not read much about gun laws within the soviet union however. I have read Marx, and I do know he advocated violent revolution. Therefore, a communist along marxist lines would use violence and guns. I also made the point that neither Russia or China are actually communists, as is indicated by vast inequality and inconsistent policy relating to their political structuring and social statistics.

Yes, I remember you discussing correlation vs causation. However, most of the stats I was citing had more to do with constitution (not the document). Causal links are hard to verify, and can get caught up in chicken and egg problems such as retrocausality, but correlation while not definitive proof, is about as good as you're going to get when discussing social problems, because usually 1 factor does not cause 1 thing. That is why i focus on the constitution of a problem.

First, retrocausality is bunk pseudoscience. Don't get distracted by it. If we see what is apparently effects preceding causes, it's really just that we don't understand the causes in the first place.

Correlation is only as good as you'll get when you confine yourself to statistical arguments. Logic and reason can give us a much deeper understanding. Correlation can be a good guidepost, but it becomes worse and worse the more complex the system. Once you are looking at statistics for societies as a whole, they become almost worthless. You repeatedly state statistics related to things like welfare spending vs quality of life, and yet societies are composed of millions of other factors. The notion that these two loosely correlated ideas are causally related is bordering on a kind of faith that even the most devout Muslim couldn't muster. And if you're going to show these two things are related in support of an argument to bolster welfare, then you are most certainly assuming causation. If there is no causation, then there would be no reason to believe action A will have effect B. Causation is most certainly at the heart of every utilitarian argument about how we structure our laws.

[Orruar]

Originally Posted by Ryba [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

lol at the whole "YOU SIGNED A SOCIAL CONTRACT!" argument. Like democracy isn't defined by being constantly in revision.

Ah, you missed the point then. My social contract trolling was in direct response to his "social contract" garbage in another thread. Essentially what you saw here was just his argument being applied back to him, in an attempt to show him how ridiculous it is. He managed to completely miss the obvious point that you have so quickly understood.

[Stinkum]

This thread is a lot better if you assume that Orruar is actually a parody forum account for that annoying Paultard on every college campus who thinks he's intelligent because he can paraphrase Milton Friedman.

[aowen]

I said you should look up facts first. I didnt say they are all stats, but stats are a compendium of data that is used to HELP analyze complex situations. Statistics should always be scrutinized to identify weaknesses, which is why one by itself is usually not enough. Other types of facts do exist, and should also be used.

In addition to facts, logical argument is important, it is what connects facts and makes sense of them and their connection to any situation/issue. However, absent of facts/evidence, a theory has no verification. The evidence and stats are the best attempt at applying scientific method to test theories. Concurrently, facts are useless without being arranged by logic and reason to form a cognitive theory.

I use both of these things in conjunction, you disdain one of them.

Also causal theory should not be dismissed, but it is only one element of analysis necessary to understanding a situation. You must know the constitution of a situation to understand the dynamics, and possibly be able to positively verify causes.

[aowen]

Originally Posted by Orruar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Ah, you missed the point then. My social contract trolling was in direct response to his "social contract" garbage in another thread. Essentially what you saw here was just his argument being applied back to him, in an attempt to show him how ridiculous it is. He managed to completely miss the obvious point that you have so quickly understood.

Yeah, I think he can see how retarded you are by himself. I like how you also still think from the other thread that you're right about when poverty alleviation began.

[r00t]

I got a raging boner

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[Rellapse34]

Originally Posted by r00t [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I got a raging boner

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fuck that

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[Rellapse34]

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