Classic mechanic discussion: fast weapon/white damage aggro

[koros]

Thats not how it works Splorf. It's (damage x 2 + (db))/delay. Twig is 1.7, epic is 1.625

[JayN]

Originally Posted by Splorf22 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I mean I posted on the first page the precise mathematics that give exactly the behavior that Nirgon wants and are in fact implemented and instead he is going off on one of his unfounded crusades.

Mosscovered twig: 5+11 = 16/10 = 1.6 ratio. That's way better than the epic (1.05 ratio).

where do you get these numbers from?

[Nirgon]

Agreed with Ambrotos.

Rolled eyes @ splorf.

[pasi]

Rather than type up a long post as usual:

Hate per swing = damage + (damage bonus * hate mod)

Some reading if you care

http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum...ead.php?t=3789

http://www.evilgamer.net/forums/showthread.php?t=38

[pasi]

My belief (after discussion with Kringe in team speak) is that every single landed hit from a weapon, in addition to the damage it did, had a base amount of hate for a scored hit.

Swings are as much hate as misses. It doesn't matter if you miss, get parried, hit for full, hit for the lowest DI, crit, etc. It's all the same hate.

I don't want to derail this thread, but procs that stun and debuff should not be capped in this era. That means the hate given by these effects 'should' be a function of the NPC's HP rather than the 400 hate cap on non-casted stuns.

I'm not sure if stun and debuff procs are modifier based on the HP of mobs over here, but if the server is using flat values for these spells, it would explain why melee hate seems relatively weak compared to procs in an exp setting. In a raid setting, procs should be WAY more aggro than melee hate.

I'm too tired to dig it up, but I posted a link a while back showing what casted stuns did threat wise relative to mob HP.

[Vayder]

Originally Posted by Frieza_Prexus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Completely anecdotal, but I used to see a lot of warriors that would duel wield lamentations and hold aggro decently well. Also, I definitely remember the revultant whip getting a lot of hate for its hyper-aggro tendencies.

What could explain this? Were we all just that bad at the game?

It's true on live many warriors would dual wield lamentations, but...

1) How many pickup group rogues had epic?
2) How many pickup group monks had epic/SoS or T-staff?
3) How many pickup group melee had better than FBSS haste?
4) If swing speed was what mattered, why did warriors use dual Lamentation rather than dual Jade Mace?

The reality is that Lamentation drops frequently, had stats that were overvalued, a graphic people really liked, and the average pickup group required you to generate far less hate than you need to here.

The mechanics for hate are well known, readily available and are implemented on the server.

[koros]

Take that back, what I posted was for damage not hate.

[khanable]

Originally Posted by pasi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Swings are as much hate as misses. It doesn't matter if you miss, get parried, hit for full, hit for the lowest DI, crit, etc. It's all the same hate.

I don't want to derail this thread, but procs that stun and debuff should not be capped in this era. That means the hate given by these effects 'should' be a function of the NPC's HP rather than the 400 hate cap on non-casted stuns.

I'm not sure if stun and debuff procs are modifier based on the HP of mobs over here, but if the server is using flat values for these spells, it would explain why melee hate seems relatively weak compared to procs in an exp setting. In a raid setting, procs should be WAY more aggro than melee hate.

I'm too tired to dig it up, but I posted a link a while back showing what casted stuns did threat wise relative to mob HP.

Correct. I posted some links about this in the warrior epic thread.

Remember, the warrior epic originally had a debuff proc instead of a +hate proc. That's why we still have a residual spell gem. At the time debuff procs were functions of the mobs max HP -- which made them rather shitty during kunark, and very over powered in velious. There was a hate generation revamp that I believe changed the warrior epic and put a max on the debuff hate generation.

This is why enchanters and whatnot would get insta-gibbed debuffing basically anthing in velious.

I don't think it's a matter of hate per swing working incorrectly, I just think the hate generation on some procs is higher than it should be AND we have a huge pool of super twinked toons.

[koros]

Originally Posted by Vayder [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's true on live many warriors would dual wield lamentations, but...

1) How many pickup group rogues had epic?
2) How many pickup group monks had epic/SoS or T-staff?
3) How many pickup group melee had better than FBSS haste?
4) If swing speed was what mattered, why did warriors use dual Lamentation rather than dual Jade Mace?

The reality is that Lamentation drops frequently, had stats that were overvalued, a graphic people really liked, and the average pickup group required you to generate far less hate than you need to here.

The mechanics for hate are well known, readily available and are implemented on the server.

Jade Maces were decently rare during Kunark, not a whole lot of wars had 2 by the end of the expansion. Lammys were much more common and you're right about the stats being overvalued.

[Borador]

Originally Posted by Splorf22 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I mean I posted on the first page the precise mathematics that give exactly the behavior that Nirgon wants and are in fact implemented and instead he is going off on one of his unfounded crusades.

Mosscovered twig: 5+11 = 16/10 = 1.6 ratio. That's way better than the epic (1.05 ratio).

and there is no offhand damage bonus, the hate generation was extremely high in the OFFhand with faster weapons not just the main (aka its not just damage done). What you are posting is why twig did so much damage (and obviously hate generation) as a main hand abusing the DMG bonus..