Secrets of Mage-y goodness

[tuxqueot]

simple math dude.

You have 2400 mana, I have 2400 mana.

You cast Ice Comet 6 times and are out of mana. You did 6720 damage.
I cast Lava Bolt 8 times for 6480 damage and still have a pet doing more DPS.

Sure, you did 240 more damage nuking than I did (or about 3.5% more), but which of us did the most damage over that fight?

[Lazortag]

Originally Posted by tuxqueot [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

simple math dude.

You have 2400 mana, I have 2400 mana.

You cast Ice Comet 6 times and are out of mana. You did 6720 damage.
I cast Lava Bolt 8 times for 6480 damage and still have a pet doing more DPS.

Sure, you did 240 more damage nuking than I did (or about 3.5% more), but which of us did the most damage over that fight?

simple math dude.

You have 2400 mana, I have 2400 mana.

You cast Ice Comet 6 times and are out of mana. You did 6720 damage.
I cast a spell that does 81 damage for 30 mana, 80 times, for 6480 damage and still have a pet doing more DPS.

Sure, you did 240 more damage nuking than I did, but which one of us did the most damage over that fight?

[rioisk]

Originally Posted by Lazortag [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

simple math dude.

You have 2400 mana, I have 2400 mana.

You cast Ice Comet 6 times and are out of mana. You did 6720 damage.
I cast a spell that does 81 damage for 30 mana, 80 times, for 6480 damage and still have a pet doing more DPS.

Sure, you did 240 more damage nuking than I did, but which one of us did the most damage over that fight?

Your logic is sound but the differences in number of casts radically distorts what is actually going on. Mages may have to cast a few more times, not 80 times a wizard, to do the same amount of damage, but that doesn't matter in the long run during a raid where a wizard is constantly medding to do 1 more nuke while a mage's pet is constant DPS. Sure the burst fire is a slightly better on a wizard not to mention the base resist modifier is slightly better but overall the argument is that the slight reduction doesn't offset the pet DPS.

[rioisk]

There are no secrets to a mage. Get focus items. Use fire pet. Do single pulls over and over. Get jboots asap. Your pet is pretty much better dps then raid-geared melee classes + you get nukes.

[Lazortag]

Originally Posted by rioisk [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Your logic is sound but the differences in number of casts radically distorts what is actually going on. Mages may have to cast a few more times, not 80 times a wizard, to do the same amount of damage, but that doesn't matter in the long run during a raid where a wizard is constantly medding to do 1 more nuke while a mage's pet is constant DPS. Sure the burst fire is a slightly better on a wizard not to mention the base resist modifier is slightly better but overall the argument is that the slight reduction doesn't offset the pet DPS.

That I understand. But his argument that it was only 3.5% better because it has a 3.5% better damage to mana ratio was ridiculous because it didn't factor in the number of times a wizard has to cast, and that was the point I wanted to make.

For the record, I think it's actually pretty clear that the addition of a pet (not to mention DS's) makes a mage's soloability/DPS/(mostly everything) quite a bit easier for them, but as a math major I had to nitpick a bit at the poster's reasoning that Ice Comet was only "3.5% better" than Lava Bolt.

[tuxqueot]

I am simply comparing wizard best nuke to a mages best nuke. I have no idea what you are trying to say. But okay, we'll run with it a bit, see how far it goes.

You cast Ice Comet 6 times. takes 6.3 seconds to cast, 2.25 seconds to reset. assuming you can chain cast with out aggro, your 6 casts take a total of 51.3 seconds and you are out of mana with nothing further to contribute.

I cast Lava Bolt 8 times. Takes 7 seconds to cast, 2.25 seconds to reset. Again, assuming I can chain cast with out aggro, takes 74 seconds and I am out of mana.

That gives you 23 seconds or we'll even be generous and give you a full 24 seconds or 4 ticks to regen some mana back while I am still casting. 4 ticks. Thats what? 80 mana regened? 100? Hell, I'll even be generous and say you get the full 400 to cast another Ice Comet (which is ridiculous, but hey, lets run with it).

So, you get a 7th cast of Ice Comet. Total damage, 7840. My total Damage, 6480 from nukes, plus my pet which as I said hits for up to 58, and quads. I'm still willing to bet my pet does more than the 1380 damage difference betwen you nuking and me nuking.

All I'm saying it's like the rabbit and the turtle. steady damage over time will out beat burst damage most of the time. And the mages pet makes up for and surpasses any lack of damage we may have in the nuking department.

[Lazortag]

again, I really was just nitpicking at the way you were trying to pinpoint the percentage by which one spell was better than another without even focusing on all of the relevant variables. Your main point is that mages outdo wizards in terms of DPS (I guess?), and you're probably right about that.

[Lazortag]

Also, just a cynical little comment: why is it that a few weeks ago people were acting like it was the end of the world because mages were "overnerfed", yet in this thread the consensus seems to be that they're still overpowered?

[tuxqueot]

shrug, I wasn't taking any variables into account because that wasn't my point. I was simply saying that mana to damage ratio, a wizards nuke per mana used is only 3.5% better than a mages.

This argument has been on the top of my mind recently due to raid usage of mod rods. It kills me to see a wizard using mod rods knowing that the mana I spent making them could have been better spent nuking myself than giving the mana to a wizard since the mana used to damage done ration is so tight.

To illustrate that point, here's some more hard numbers.

Mod rod costs 200 mana each. Does 225 damage, gives 150 mana.

So lets say for the sake of arguement a wizard used 3 mod rods to cast 1 ice comet. He takes 675 damage to get 450 mana, 400 of which is spent doing 1120 damage. Yes, I've seen it happen since we now have to trade mod rods directly or drop them on the ground for anyone to pick up.

Ok so the cleric in his group see him take 675 damage and throws a superior heal, 250 mana, for 600 point heal. Then the cleric uses 2 mod rods to get back the mana used on that heal. I know this because I've been feeding said cleric mod rods all night.

So I just spent 1000 of my mana to provide a wizard the mana to do 1120 damage. When I could have just cast 3 lava bolt myself and done up to 2430 damage.

I know you wanna talk about the other variables but what it really comes down to in the end is simple mana efficiency and the difference between a mage and a wizard in pure mana efficiency is very slight. I'm not saying wizards don't have their uses and for quick, fast, burst damage no other class can compare. But over time, the slower but steadier damage done by a mage will win out.

[tuxqueot]

Originally Posted by Lazortag [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Also, just a cynical little comment: why is it that a few weeks ago people were acting like it was the end of the world because mages were "overnerfed", yet in this thread the consensus seems to be that they're still overpowered?

I didn't have a problem with the "pet nerf". And yes, mages are very powerful, under the right circumstances. On live, my wife used to say playing a mage was almost like cheating. Then one day I soloed Innoruuk, then she said playing a mage was deffinately cheating.

However, Innoruuk was a blue /con. I've seen wizards, druids and necros solo kite red /cons that would eat my pet and then have me for desert. Because mages don't get any kind of snare and as long as the mobs don't summon, kiting is viable to those classes, but not to a mage. Every class has it's strengths and weaknesses. The mage just has to play a little smarter to over come those weaknesses, pick our battles more carefully.