Raiding in P1999 is nothing like raiding in classic.

[Ravager]

Originally Posted by Tecmos Deception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's comical to me that people call both cats and dogs animals, seeing as they appear to be so different.

I do not think it comical to call both the P99 raider and the Olympian human beings. The comedy is in saying what both do to win is the same.

[Raavak]

Originally Posted by Quientus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Actually on E'Ci Recon sorta "shared" the Top spot with Vane ... Recon was US based and Vane was Asian (player for player, Vane blew Recon away, but Recon had alot more members)

Those two guilds "shared" the top spot in 2 shifts a day. They never had to really compete for anything. They didn't have to race for mob pops. It was pretty close to a complete monopoly.

More people have experienced more and gotten more on P99 than Classic. I don't understand why people complain... except greed. They want more. Its okay to never be satisfied, it keeps you coming back. But for the love of God stop saying its worse than Live.

[Quientus]

Originally Posted by Raavak [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Those two guilds "shared" the top spot in 2 shifts a day. They never had to really compete for anything. They didn't have to race for mob pops. It was pretty close to a complete monopoly.

More people have experienced more and gotten more on P99 than Classic. I don't understand why people complain... except greed. They want more. Its okay to never be satisfied, it keeps you coming back. But for the love of God stop saying its worse than Live.

Did you have a character "Rakpak" (or something along those lines) ?

And you are correct, they didn't "race for mobs" perce, however they were targetting almost the same mobs during some time ...

One of the problems and perhaps why some people feel about this the way they do, is perhaps because they are not so willing (or able) to commit the same amount of time to this game than they used to ?

Either way seems to me, its a "storm in a glass a water" really (not sure you use the same analogy in english ?).

[Raavak]

Originally Posted by Quientus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Did you have a character "Rakpak" (or something along those lines) ?

no

http://eci.ofasoft.com/ if you are interested

[Quientus]

Originally Posted by Raavak [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

no

http://eci.ofasoft.com/ if you are interested

I've been on that site a while now :-)

[Tecmos Deception]

Originally Posted by Ravager [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The comedy is in saying what both do to win is the same.

Nonsense. TMO does what they must in order to win. So do olympians. In that regard, they're exactly the same.

TMO can do :the same thing: as olypmians without undergoing intense physical and mental training for several hours per day over the course of years while also being mindful of diet, sleep patterns, etc etc etc. Welcome to analogy. Things can be the same in one or more ways without being exactly the same in every single regard.

The analogy was just fine.

[Tiddlywinks]

Originally Posted by W8Gamer [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Right. Except the argument isn't always "that's not classic". The main argument is that the current rules in place cater to TMO. It's already been stated multiple times that the rule on training is not based on classic EQ. The rule was put in place for a reason that has NOTHING to do with classic EQ. So, I don't understand why people keep bringing up the classic argument for training in VP.

As far as variance goes, from what I understand variance was put in to place to try and prevent poop-socking. You take away variance and then what happens? Lots and lots of poop-socking which just brings about the next series of threads complaining that the current raid scene is terrible and needs to be fixed.

I don't know that you are understanding my argument. My argument is that there is nothing "unfair" about the current rules because the current rules apply to everyone. Everyone on the server can train in VP, not just TMO. Everyone on the server can park toons at raid targets, not just TMO. Everyone on the server can do everything TMO does. The problem is no one wants to. And so long as that stands true, TMO, or whoever the top guild at the time is going to have the upper hand. It's all about how far and how much you're willing to dedicate to the raid scene. You can change the rules tomorrow and for a few weeks, TMO might lose targets here and there. However, if they stay as dedicated and determined as they have been, they will eventually work out a method to maintain their control and we're right back at square one.

The first problem that needs to be addressed is this: Is the competition to TMO (or whoever the top guild is at the time) willing to go the lengths the top guild will go to get that kill? If the answer is no, then no rule will solve the problem. That's why live eventually went to isntances as that's the ONLY thing that's going to give everyone a chance at all the raid targets.

I understand your point, but I think we're really talking about 2 seperate things.

However, in regards to the fact that you feel they don't have an advantage over an up and coming guild I'm really confused. TMO got it's foot in VP early, only IB had the same advantage that they were given, and IB quit playing on the server, so guilds such as FE have almost no way of accessing the zone given the current rules.

It's much harder to pull of a successful assault than it is to mount a defense, and all TMO needs to do, given the rules of the server, is hold on and defend VP to maintain their advantage.

Personally I think the rules at the time had a direct affect on giving TMO this advantage, because they were literally GIVEN a rotation for their first cracks at VP. Nobody in FE or any other guild wanting to attempt to challenge TMO for mobs in the zone can say they were offered the same. The fact FE ever killed anything in there is insanely impressive.

Of course TMO has to play by the same rules as everyone else, I don't think that's the issue being discussed. The issue is that given the current non-classic rules, actual competition has been all but stifled, and almost nobody else wanting to raid or see the zone is having any fun.

Now we can argue all day about whether THAT is classic or not (it was imo) but the point is here it's only due to non-classic rules, whereas on live it actually came down to player/guild skill and knowledge. Barriers that simply don't exist for the majority of players on this server.

[finalgrunt]

More people have experienced more and gotten more on P99 than Classic. I don't understand why people complain... except greed. They want more. Its okay to never be satisfied, it keeps you coming back. But for the love of God stop saying its worse than Live.

With current state of affairs, it is worse (unless you're in TMO). On Live we had room for multiple raiding guilds, and each had its share of targets, with much less involvment than it is required for p99. We never had people camped at a target, or people tracking 24/7. We would always race against other guilds, and the arriving order (we didn't nitpick what was or wasn't a raid size as it was obvious for everybody) decided the trial order, and people would wait in line and hope for a wipe for their turn.

And I wouldn't say people want more, they just want some. If you decide to still call this greed, well, that's up to you.

Greed is the inordinate desire to possess wealth, goods, or objects of abstract value with the intention to keep it for one's self, far beyond the dictates of basic survival and comfort. It is applied to a markedly high desire for and pursuit of wealth, status, and power.

Now, according to this definition, who are those greedy again?

[Ravager]

Originally Posted by Tecmos Deception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Nonsense. TMO does what they must in order to win. So do olympians. In that regard, they're exactly the same.

TMO can do :the same thing: as olypmians without undergoing intense physical and mental training for several hours per day over the course of years while also being mindful of diet, sleep patterns, etc etc etc. Welcome to analogy. Things can be the same in one or more ways without being exactly the same in every single regard.

The analogy was just fine.

The bolded part is why the analogy doesn't work. The only thing similar to each other in this example is the amount of time put in. Olympians put in more time still and they're not sitting on their asses playing a video game doing it.

[Nirgon]

Rakpartha going hard trying to straighten you people out