Raiding in P1999 is nothing like raiding in classic.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

Originally Posted by burkemi5 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm not arguing against your point here, I just want to mention a few things.

To those who want raid gear:

Are you willing to have alarms set at 4AM to wake you (and possibly your spouse) up so you can go raid for 30 minutes, potentially making you a zombie the next day at work or pissing off your spouse? I can tell you, and I'm sure many will agree, that if my spouse woke up due to a video game alarm, there'd be heck to pay.

Are you willing to bring a laptop to work and constantly have EQ ready to be logged in at moments notice? Or maybe you use your lunch break to go to a coffee shop and use their wifi? I am sure many of us use our lunch break to socialize with co-workers or run short errands.

Or are you willing to have EQ open for days on end while you visually track a boss spawning? This one isn't so bad, but it still requires you to look at your computer every 2-7 minutes. Does your buddy call you up, wanting to go do something fun? Sorry, can't go until I find someone to replace me.

Now, does doing these things make TMO greedy or immoral? I don't think so necessarily. Are they playing within the rules? Yes. By using these "strategies", TMO has essentially created new raiding rules. If you want to get any raid targets, you need to be as good or better than they are at doing this. You need your guild to camp out at targets that are in window. You need people to wake up at 4AM, pissing off their spouse, to log in and kill it. You need someone sitting there watching the boss.

Like it or not, if you want raid gear on here, you have to do this. Nowhere in the rules does it say this, but this is how the raid scene operates under TMO's unofficial rules.

this is standard operating procedure, if you want to own a server. if you don't do this, you lose spawns.

Where is the controversy? Does TMO require everyone to wear pantyhose on a webcam while they raid? That would be kinda out of line.

[Ravager]

Originally Posted by Autotune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The 4am thing has always been on the server and every successful raiding guild has used it.

The other things, very few do those in TMO. I could count them on one hand, least back when I played with them.

Fact: You don't have to do any of these to get raid targets on p99.

Fact: You do if you're not in TMO. That's the point.

[Autotune]

Originally Posted by Ravager [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Fact: You do if you're not in TMO. That's the point.

Why do you?

No one forces a guild to get targets at 4am.
No one forces you to log in from work.

Raid targets spawn at all times of the day, I am sure some will spawn when you're guild's "prime time" is.

[Tiddlywinks]

Originally Posted by Frieza_Prexus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Perhaps, but for the present purposes it suffices to say that playing within the confines of the server's rules should not manufacture true culpability of a real sort - ethical or moral. Unless you're suggesting that one of those two cases exists here (which is entirely possible), my point still stands that the main issue, by far, is the server's rules and how they are structured. Player conduct is a distant secondary concern.



Any solution must ostensibly fit within the "classic" guidelines the server has established. Such solutions must either be perfectly classic or meant to address a non-classic problem so as to enable a "more classic" environment. Forced rotations and such have been categorically rejected by the developers as a potential solution. Increasing the variance won't help much, if at all. Socking will always exist to some extent or another, and the best you can hope to do is mitigate it to varying extents. For example, mobs no longer have a set "window closing" and this has drastically cut down on active socking, but it has not eliminated it.

If you're interested in exploring options, the most favored idea that has gained traction is (semi) random repops every other week or so. For the reasons I explained above, it evens the playing field without eliminating the advantages of hard work and preparation. The second most favored solution is to apply the normal CSR rules to VP or enable PVP in the zone (with the former option being the most heavily favored by far).

Most other solutions have been explored ad nauseum and very little original development has taken place in this area lately. If you're hoping to to impact the raid scene in a positive manner, the above solutions are the most pragmatic and popular options to support.

Therein lies the rub. Rather than having a server that functions like one would during classic EverQuest, GMs are instead creating and playing by a non-classic rulebook in, presumably, what they feel is the best attempt at giving the server a classic "feel" while not actually being classic.

Things like 4 day variances, the changes to Ivayndrs Hoops, our own take on a PnP policy, all of these things culminate in doing the exact opposite of what they were meant to do. They make the server LESS classic, not more.

That "feeling" is never going to be fully recaptured, so can we please stop making things non-classic in an attempt to artificially create it by purposefully implementing non-classic "fixes"?

I honestly would have thought that Nilbog would have hard-veto'd any attempt to do something like change Ivandyrs Hoop or adding variances since there is proof neither existed in their current state during live. It's very sad that he didn't.

[Tiddlywinks]

Originally Posted by burkemi5 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm not arguing against your point here, I just want to mention a few things.

To those who want raid gear:

Are you willing to have alarms set at 4AM to wake you (and possibly your spouse) up so you can go raid for 30 minutes, potentially making you a zombie the next day at work or pissing off your spouse? I can tell you, and I'm sure many will agree, that if my spouse woke up due to a video game alarm, there'd be heck to pay.

Are you willing to bring a laptop to work and constantly have EQ ready to be logged in at moments notice? Or maybe you use your lunch break to go to a coffee shop and use their wifi? I am sure many of us use our lunch break to socialize with co-workers or run short errands.

Or are you willing to have EQ open for days on end while you visually track a boss spawning? This one isn't so bad, but it still requires you to look at your computer every 2-7 minutes. Does your buddy call you up, wanting to go do something fun? Sorry, can't go until I find someone to replace me.

Now, does doing these things make TMO greedy or immoral? I don't think so necessarily. Are they playing within the rules? Yes. By using these "strategies", TMO has essentially created new raiding rules. If you want to get any raid targets, you need to be as good or better than they are at doing this. You need your guild to camp out at targets that are in window. You need people to wake up at 4AM, pissing off their spouse, to log in and kill it. You need someone sitting there watching the boss.

Like it or not, if you want raid gear on here, you have to do this. Nowhere in the rules does it say this, but this is how the raid scene operates under TMO's unofficial rules.

This is not TMO's fault, and it happened the same way before they were on top.

This is a by product of variance, and rules. Nothing more.

People are going to do everything they can within the rules to win.

[Ravager]

Originally Posted by Autotune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Why do you?

No one forces a guild to get targets at 4am.
No one forces you to log in from work.

Raid targets spawn at all times of the day, I am sure some will spawn when you're guild's "prime time" is.

I'm just saying, it's no coincidence that when any other guild tries to go toe to toe with TMO it turns into a poopsock.

VS, Trak, Fay, Sev, CT, Inny. Doesn't matter what time of day these spawn. If you're not doing the things you say don't have to be done it's highly unlikely you're going to get them. Especially with the extended window code.

It wouldn't be as big an issue if they weren't tied to epic weapons. I'd be for early epic revamps.

[Tiddlywinks]

Originally Posted by W8Gamer [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think you're right. Therefore, I won't respond. As I said in the post, if you can't see it, then there is no getting through to you.



Ok, now if this is true (and I have no idea if it is. I wasn't around for all this stuff), then it sounds to me that you all's problem isn't with the rules, but the referees (or the one referee, Amelinda).

My argument still stands in that the rules apply to everyone equally. Just as TMO can train you in VP, you are free to train TMO. I don't understand how anyone sees that as unfair? I hear you saying that what happened in the past was unfair, and if that's how it went down, then I don't disagree. However, what does what happened then have to do with the rule of training now? Did FE beat TMO out on a VP dragon or not? If they did, then that is proof alone that the system does not solely favor TMO. That TMO can in fact be beat at their own game.

So, what's the problem then? The problem isn't the rules. Just read through every thread about this and the problem is easy to identify. Allow me to point it out to you as I've read it over and over and over. Majority of people don't want to camp out at targets. Majority of people don't want to devote their EQ time to getting to a raid target first. A lot of people find that aspect not fun and not enjoyable. Well I have some unfortunate news, not everyone feels that way. Some folks enjoy camping out a target to make sure they get the first kill. There also those that maybe don't find it enjoyable but are so dedicated to getting that kill will do it anyway. That's what it takes. It takes that level of dedication and desire. I just don't see this magical rule change that is going to stop the guild with the most dedication and desire to achieve their goals.

They will find a way because that's what they do. They'll split raid forces, poop-sock, and whatever else is needed to get that kill. And so long as everyone else isn't prepared to go the lengths TMO is, you'll always be behind. Either way it goes, you are going to have to play the game as good if not better than TMO. Otherwise, TMO will stay on top, or whoever the top guild is for that matter. And that's exactly how it was on live. The guild with the most dedication stayed on top. So, the problem isn't the rules. The rules apply to TMO just like everyone else (and if they don't, a rule change isn't going to fix it because the problem is with the refs). So, the problem is lack of desire/dedication by the competition.

Now, que the people to enter the thread and talk about in order to be that dedicated to a 13 year old elf simulator, you have to be a fat, basement dwelling, slob with no life and no achievements lol. Love those posts as they very rarely apply to those in the raid scene.

I highlighted your conflicting statements.

Consider for a minute that variance is not classic, and neither is being allowed to train people intentionally to keep them away from zones/mobs.

[W8Gamer]

Originally Posted by Ravager [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's comical to me that you compare anyone here to an olympian.

Right?! Almost as comical as comparing the monopolization of raid targets to a real word economic monopoly of a natural resource. Or, the comparison of hoarding raid loot to that of someone hoarding an abundance of food when a person in the very same room will die of starvation.

Morgander referenced the Olympics and compared cheating in the Olympics to the immoral aspect of the current raiding system. I merely kept my comparison in frame to his. Of course I don't think a leet EQ raider is even remotely comparable to an Olympian and if that's all you got my from post, clearly this discussion is a bit over your head.

[Autotune]

Originally Posted by Ravager [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm just saying, it's no coincidence that when any other guild tries to go toe to toe with TMO it turns into a poopsock.

VS, Trak, Fay, Sev, CT, Inny. Doesn't matter what time of day these spawn. If you're not doing the things you say don't have to be done it's highly unlikely you're going to get them. Especially with the extended window code.

It wouldn't be as big an issue if they weren't tied to epic weapons. I'd be for early epic revamps.

It's always turned into a poopsock when two guilds go toe to toe. That's not a product of what TMO is doing, that's a product of how EQ works.

Also, it's highly unlikely you're going to get targets if you don't try. Guilds could easily go for targets when they have time. Guild's keep looking at how many they can't get and not how many they can get.

[W8Gamer]

Originally Posted by Tiddlywinks [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I highlighted your conflicting statements.

Consider for a minute that variance is not classic, and neither is being allowed to train people intentionally to keep them away from zones/mobs.

Right. Except the argument isn't always "that's not classic". The main argument is that the current rules in place cater to TMO. It's already been stated multiple times that the rule on training is not based on classic EQ. The rule was put in place for a reason that has NOTHING to do with classic EQ. So, I don't understand why people keep bringing up the classic argument for training in VP.

As far as variance goes, from what I understand variance was put in to place to try and prevent poop-socking. You take away variance and then what happens? Lots and lots of poop-socking which just brings about the next series of threads complaining that the current raid scene is terrible and needs to be fixed.

I don't know that you are understanding my argument. My argument is that there is nothing "unfair" about the current rules because the current rules apply to everyone. Everyone on the server can train in VP, not just TMO. Everyone on the server can park toons at raid targets, not just TMO. Everyone on the server can do everything TMO does. The problem is no one wants to. And so long as that stands true, TMO, or whoever the top guild at the time is going to have the upper hand. It's all about how far and how much you're willing to dedicate to the raid scene. You can change the rules tomorrow and for a few weeks, TMO might lose targets here and there. However, if they stay as dedicated and determined as they have been, they will eventually work out a method to maintain their control and we're right back at square one.

The first problem that needs to be addressed is this: Is the competition to TMO (or whoever the top guild is at the time) willing to go the lengths the top guild will go to get that kill? If the answer is no, then no rule will solve the problem. That's why live eventually went to isntances as that's the ONLY thing that's going to give everyone a chance at all the raid targets.