Luclin

[t0lkien]

Originally Posted by Ryba [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm glad I read some of this thread or I would have wasted time typing out pretty much this exactly.

And t0lkien: I usually agree with your posts, but your opinion-- "Luclin *did* break the game, in so many ways, and it has been pointed out in many threads before this" --is still just an opinion, even if it is dressed up like an absolute statement. In fact, a lot of evidence points to Luclin being a profitable and well received expansion. Was everyone who played it foolishly deriving pleasure from a broken game?

Luclin had a bunch of shit in it, but so did EQ classic. Everyone is simply less critical of classic EQ because it was still establishing a baseline for how to think about MMORPGs. So we don't revile things like horrible melee itemization and class balance in classic because we thought that that's Just How It Is.

The whole point is moot because AAs were "gutted" from the code early on. But I would be much more enthusiastic about playing here if I knew the server would stop at PoP where raiding would open up once and for all. Quarm event is somewhat anticlimactic, but it does feel like it put SOME kind of a capstone on the game.

It is odd to me that some people don't see Luclin and PoP as adding anything worthwhile. Sony left the elf fantasy canon to do something original but flawed, and I think it is remarkable that they were able to release 4 playable expansions before coughing up the turd known as GoD. If we were taking sides, I would much rather hang out with the apologists than the purists. Nobody likes a hipster.

Warning, incoming WOT, but all the points being aggressively thrown out in this discussion can't be answered quickly (though they've been answered before).

Thanks for the kudos, and for the record, I'm totally aware of the subjectivity/objectivity conundrum. However, I would still argue that Luclin did objectively break the game that existed up to Velious. I've said before that I also liked aspects of Luclin (SSRAE and other Luclin zones featured in my colour peaced linked in another thread) so it's not a matter of what I liked or didn't like. It's a matter of looking at it objectively and seeing the inevitable result of the things implemented on the future of the game. I and all my friends felt this death the first time we saw a 100+hp item linked in chat. We just couldn't then articulate why it diminished the game, but we intuitively knew it did. With the benefit of hindsight, now I can.

I and others have pointed this out before, and the points keep being challenged so I'm going to do it again, but beware it's a bit of a read:

1. The context. Cats on the Moon, clearly sci-fi inspired artwork (because, you know, it's on the moon which is in space), and so many other subtle breaks from the High Fantasy world created and adhered to up to Velious. Yes I know EQ was always an uneven mish-mash of D&D/clumsy RPG styling. But the general feel was there, and clear. Luclin was an ugly diversion from this made by people who obviously had no feel for or understanding of what had gone before. Context matters - in fact, after a lifetime playing and reading this stuff, and 15 years trying to make it, I actually think it matters more than any other single thing in game development. Context first, then gameplay which draws naturally from and is empowered by the context (in RPGs).
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2. Stat mudflation. Luclin fundamentally undermined every system in the game by blowing the stat increases available via itemization off the chart. This is the inevitable result of continuing a game beyond it's original design, but it means that all the systems (which comprise literally millions+ of interactions of all the numbers that make up the game) are trivialized and unbalanced. The game lost its very carefully guarded numerical heart, and as one who was there from day one I remember how long it took SOE to plug even the most obvious holes with constant patches for the first few months. Anyone who has tried to build an RPG system will understand why this out of proportion stat increase negatively affected game mechanics, the entire feel of the game, and the economy. It changes the game irrevocably, and is the thing that Luclin "broke" most. It pushed it and other MMOs into what I call the "big number system" world. For a look at that, see any Asian MMO. They are very different experiences as a result, and were designed to be so from the ground up, so everything (even the art) plays into it. For a game that was designed to be the opposite from its outset, it was a death blow to the original systems. The Bazaar had the identical direct effect upon the economy, and player interaction and reputation it was built around. If you make things easier, you reduce their value and the value of anything that depended on or fed off them. You can argue about that point as much as you like, it's like arguing against gravity. It's just how it works.
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3. The undermining of class distinction. This is a huge one, and Luclin only started it but it opened the door. Ensuing expansions up to and through PoP completed the devastation. When you supply free insta-ports to everyone when previously it was restricted as an earned (read gameplay) class ability to certain classes, when you duplicate existing class defining abilities in "new" classes (Beastmaster), when you introduce mounts to increase player speed when that speed increase ability was a core element in other classes (SoW, Bardsong - an absolute class defining ability; the Bard is built around and balanced off movement speed in every single area of its design), when you supply insta-click items that begin to give every class the ability to do these class-defining things - you blur, undermine, and ultimately remove the beautiful interactions between and value of classes you created the previous expansions. You trivialize the epic feel of the world you carefully created. You devalue player choices. It's literally designer bi-polarism to do something like that. You build up and ruthlessly guard your world only to tear it down. It makes no sense. AA's are included here. I liked them too in concept, but they as much as anything brutalized class separation and distinction which relies upon careful limits as much as it relies upon clearly defined abilities.

There are many other issues that extend naturally from these three. It's a tsunami of rippled effect that meant the end of the original (classic) experience. I know lots of people liked it, and didn't care for or about any of the things lost or foreshadowed as lost in Luclin. The point is they are liking a different type of game and gameplay, and there are literally hundreds of games now that supply that experience.

They also don't understand that when you gain that higher level or new ability or huge HP item, while it initially makes you feel more powerful that is only in context with the world it exists within. If that world is blown up in similar proportion to match the new power (as it must be to keep the game playable), you have gained nothing and lost elegance, balance, and value. You've also trivialized everything that went before it. This is so obvious to me that it's a little frustrating when so many people just don't or can't get it.

But in the end that's ok... I and others who do get it will just move to the places where those things exist (e.g. p99). What's truly bizarre is when those places attract others who go there for what it is, and then agitate to pull it down with the same changes that destroyed it originally. Why do you want every game to be the same? Don't you understand the things that you are desiring to bring here are the very things that killed classic in the first place? If you acknowledge the classic experience enough to play p99, you must understand why it's good, even intuitively. So to want to change it (again) is contradictory. And honestly, it's deeply bemusing for those of us who clearly understand why it is good, and what it is, and are pretty happy it exists in the form of p99 at all - imperfect though that may be.

[Champion_Standing]

Originally Posted by t0lkien [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In the end that's ok... I and others who do get it will just move to the places where those things exist (e.g. p99). What's truly bizarre is when those places attract others who go there for what it is, and then agitate to pull it down with the same changes that destroyed it originally. So Surely you can see how ironic, frustrating, and aggravating that is. Why do you want every game to be the same? Don't you understand the things that you are desiring to bring here are the very things that killed classic in the first place? If you acknowledge the classic experience enough to play p99, you must understand why it's good, even intuitively. So to want to change is contradictory. And honestly, it's deeply bemusing for those of us who clearly understand why it is good, and what it is, and are pretty happy it exists in the form of p99 at all - imperfect though that may be.

Not going to quote your entire massive post. But seriously man? Just because people say they enjoyed themselves in luclin and liked certain features of it doesn't mean they are trying to usurp and destroy project 1999. Just hearing people say they liked AAs or a certain zone in luclin gets you pretty fired up huh? All i see here are people that liked some stuff about Luclin and later expansions and they are discussing it...but you see an angry mob ready to hold a gun to Nilbogs head and make him add Luclin to the server? What is up with that....seriously?

[t0lkien]

Originally Posted by Champion_Standing [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Not going to quote your entire massive post. But seriously man? Just because people say they enjoyed themselves in luclin and liked certain features of it doesn't mean they are trying to usurp and destroy project 1999. Just hearing people say they liked AAs or a certain zone in luclin gets you pretty fired up huh?

Dude, did you read anything I wrote?

[Champion_Standing]

Originally Posted by t0lkien [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Dude, did you read anything I wrote?

Did you not read your own last paragraph? You are clearly suggesting that people here are trying to change P99 lol.

[webrunner5]

I think Luclin was a giant step up for EQ, and MMO's. The zones were a big leap from Velious. Velious was just a lot of icy, snow covered, wind blowing zones a million miles apart. I still like playing Cats today on live and a Beastlord is still one of my favorite classes. Luclin at the beginning of it was like playing a entirely new kind of game. I guess I and others liked it, you didn't. Fair enough. I still play live today. So different strokes. I play EQmac more now than here also.

P1999 has just stood still WAY too long.

[webrunner5]

Luclin in the beginning did not have Stones or the new graphics for grass etc. when it first came out. It did have the Bazaar and Cats plus the Nexus Portals. And AA's. After the stones came out I must admit the old game lost a lot. I don't think the original Bizaar was that bad in reality. The new one, well yeah.

But now there are over 500 zones to play and as a solo player I like it a lot. I get bored easily so I am in hog heaven on live. And there is some neat AA's that do even out the classes like I think the Dev's would have liked it to be in the start. It is just stupid on here that hardly anyone plays a Ranger, Pally at all and even a SK, Druid goes to crap after level 50.

When and if Velious ever comes out it will be full of Warriors, Clerics, Monks, Rogues grouping and Shamans soloing. Sounds pretty boring in the long run.

[t0lkien]

Originally Posted by webrunner5 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But now there are over 500 zones to play and as a solo player I like it a lot.

This is the point right here. EQ classic is not a solo game, by implicit design. You already have so many games like that. Why would it help for p99 to be moved toward that same thing? I completely understand why you like that, and am not criticizing that preference in any way. I (and others) are saying that is not what classic EverQuest or p99 was or should be.

But, positions can only be stated and explained so many times before it becomes meaningless, so I'll bow out now [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[webrunner5]

Originally Posted by t0lkien [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is the point right here. EQ classic is not a solo game, by implicit design. You already have so many games like that. Why would it help for p99 to be moved toward that same thing? I completely understand why you like that, and am not criticizing that preference in any way. I (and others) are saying that is not what classic EverQuest or p99 was or should be.

If EQ is not a solo game than why can't a Ranger , or a Necro or a Wizard get in a group on here. You pick anyone of those on P1999 and you had pretty much like to solo or you are out of luck. Oh and your a Iksar or Troll SK that really helps getting in groups also. And guess what none of that is going to change in Velious except the removal of the XP penalty. So woopee the SK might get in a group.

When Velious comes out TMO, FE, IB will have the high end stuff locked up for 6 months. Tons of people are already level 60 so what are their mains going to do? Two years into Velious people will be pissing and moaning just like they are now about Kunark. With no way out.

Like I have said before Velious was not one of my favorite expansions. So I am looking forward to it and not. PoP made all the other expansions look like a cake walk compared to all the work it took to get into PoT. Then is when you NEEDED to group. Only real time you NEED to group now is to get your high end pieces for your Epic.

But I am not complaining about P1999. I have had a lot of fun on here so far. Got better gear than I ever had in the original Kunark for sure. So Nilbog has made a lot of us happy and that is a good thing. I am sure he even smiles once in awhile also. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Clark]

Originally Posted by webrunner5 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think Luclin was a giant step up for EQ, and MMO's. The zones were a big leap from Velious. Velious was just a lot of icy, snow covered, wind blowing zones a million miles apart. I still like playing Cats today on live and a Beastlord is still one of my favorite classes. Luclin at the beginning of it was like playing a entirely new kind of game. I guess I and others liked it, you didn't. Fair enough. I still play live today. So different strokes.
P1999 has just stood still WAY too long.

[Ryba]

Originally Posted by t0lkien [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

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I completely agree with everything you say right up until you get to words like "death blow" or "brutalized." Luclin screwed the pooch in many ways. For instance, new NPC races were a tableau of unmotivated tropes from all subgenres of fantasy. Why were there vampires, cats, little green men and mushroom people? Nobody can tell you, other than "anything goes on the moon." Just an example of your whole "zero context" point, which is really the best argument against Luclin and the only one I won't dispute.

As to stat inflation, there is no question developers gave in to the temptation to reward people with too-powerful items. This is a bad policy for obvious reasons, mainly because it will eventually destroy interest in old content just to briefly increase interest in new stuff. But you must admit that the numbers have to go up to keep people interested, and triple digits were inevitable. I think they probably went 10% too far with Luclin, which set the precedent for exponential jumps. BUT, like monetary inflation, the real problems are pushed into the future and Luclin items were fun and powerful and not yet game-breaking. There were some too-easily obtained droppable weapons (like Centi weapons) that destroyed the market for old world gear, and worse, enthusiasm for old world zones; but on the other hand, I didn't upgrade my t staff until our fourth emperor kill, and most Velious armor is only replaced in Umbral/Ssra/VT. Weapons and gear from ToV and ST were very hard to replace at all.

I think the class distinction argument is the easiest one to take apart. It is still a huge advantage to teleport from wherever your group happens to be rather than run to a spire or a book. It is still a huge advantage to have selo's instead of a mount. They gave new powers to everyone without ruining class-defining roles. SoW was still 5% faster than Swift Journey2, which was a pain in the ass to get, and shaman have had it since level 9 in classic. I don't see why a level cap shaman would be sad about not having to sow his guild as often, or how not having to do so destroys a beautiful interaction. More anecdotes: Critical hits were a cool thing to give other classes, but warriors stayed ahead of the pack. Class AAs were awesome rewards to work up to [Stonewall stands out in my mind, as well as EQ/AM for rangers and MGB for everyone], and actually deepened class distinctions. AAs gave the game a second life at level cap instead of everyone either twinking or quitting once they've done the raid content. I just don't see how you can look back on the imperfect class development of the previous 3 expansions and say that Luclin is where it all went wrong. Powers were shared and increased--and just like with stat inflation, perhaps to too great a degree--but everyone still understood that nobody was going to out-heal a cleric.

Somehow, the game had to mature and characters had to feel stronger. When it comes to the math behind character progression, it does seem like numbers across the board could have been kept more linear. Context and lore went out the window for Luclin and heralded a future where EQ would entirely stop trying to tell you a story you could care about (though they over-compensated with PoP's scripted progression). BUT, most raid content was new and interesting and your character felt more powerful than ever. At the same time, Velious raid targets and quests still posed a challenge and even certain Kunark and vanilla drops remained desirable. In total, Luclin was definitely a step backward, but hardly a game destroyer. There was a lot of content to play through and more zone variety than in the rest of the game combined, plus it bridged the gap to PoP, which failed in its own ways, but at least managed to close the book on EQ with some class.

For what its worth, I agree that "classic" eq ends with Velious, but I think "tolerable" EQ ends with PoP.