Questioning GM Decisions

[G13]

Originally Posted by mwatt [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I see myself as basically a guest in the house that is this server. Therefore I try to conduct myself politely and not give my host any cause for concern or dismay.


That's what we all are here. Guests.

Even a guest may express an opinion, but it should be done politely and in most cases not repeatedly, if the host has already weighed in on that matter.

Trying to make other guests unhappy about what the host provides for free is bad manners. If the wishes of the host are in conflict with those of a guest, the guest should depart or simply keep quiet if the issue is small enough.

End of story. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

So then you're perfectly fine playing on a server where one guild receives special treatment over all others? This is what gives EMU servers a bad name. They are considered corrupt boxes, not supervised in a professional and respectful manner to their player base.

People started playing here because of promises made by development that cheating would not be tolerated under any circumstances. That there would be no second chances if you were caught hacking/using 3rd party programs. You don't level to 60 in a week.

The "tradeoff", in terms of the intrinsic value of our time investment here, was always that the developers were men of their word. That their rules and punishments would be distributed equally and fairly. No exceptions.

People donate to this server and ***** *** to generate revenue. We do this because we care about this server. We care about the community. We've played by the rules for years. Now we're being forced to "share" the server with 365 "guests" who are cheaters.

[Slave]

Originally Posted by mwatt [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

the guest should depart or simply keep quiet if the issue is small enough.

Unfortunately for both you and the server, the issue is the largest that P99 has ever faced, and likely will ever face.

I've seen this happen time and time again with other games and even other emus. Unless the cheaters are removed, they will continue to cause major economic and political problems for P99. You cannot reason with them, and you cannot appease them... all they want is an advantage over other people, and they don't care how they get it; this is an attitude that is completely inimical to a well-run server.

An item removal or ban on their accounts would go a long, long way toward punishing them, as opposed to basically copping out and changing their stance on cheating to "well, it's like 15% of the player base, so we'd better not ban them or we'll get less donations."

Sorry, but many of the rest of us noticed what the rules were from day 1 because we made knowing and following them a priority. Most of us are quieter than the cheaters, but some of us have a few minutes to spare in our game's forums to speak out against what we feel is a terrible flaw in judgement.

[Anger]

Ahh this is the Thesis.

Well then...Toasting on Epic Bread?

[booter]

For everyone demanding an explanation for why the staff decided to just suspend the cheaters, it was directly addressed in the news post when it happened: http://www.project1999.org/forums/sh...ad.php?t=46654

Originally Posted by Rogean

Typically this type of violation results in a permanent ban. While we are furious that this many people chose to think we aren't serious about our rules, we also aren't willing to simply throw away that many accounts.

You simply trust Nilbog/Rogean, or you don't. That's the bottom line here. They gave you the reason why, you either accept it and move on or reject it and quit. You don't keep screaming for another explanation because you didn't like the first one.

Furthermore, they can still detect people cheating! They found some 45 more people cheating who will be receiving permanent bans. That means if any of the cheaters go back to cheating, they will know about it and be removed permanently. It was clearly a decision to keep a more healthy population, with obvious pros and cons.

[G13]

Originally Posted by booter [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

For everyone demanding an explanation for why the staff decided to just suspend the cheaters, it was directly addressed in the news post when it happened: http://www.project1999.org/forums/sh...ad.php?t=46654



You simply trust Nilbog/Rogean, or you don't. That's the bottom line here. They gave you the reason why, you either accept it and move on or reject it and quit. You don't keep screaming for another explanation because you didn't like the first one.

Rogean's logic is flawed

He's assuming there is "value" to these accounts. The truth is these accounts are poison to the overall health and integrity of the server. They are like sub prime loans.

Secondly, the nightly population hasn't taken a huge hit since the suspension was put into place. I see no reason why they shouldn't make the suspension permanent, to show solidarity with the players who play by the rules and whose accounts are vastly more valuable than corrupted accounts used by cheaters.

Lastly, to make a statement that the end game will be an even playing field and cheating will not be tolerated, they need to raid suspend IB/TR (2 weeks minimum) for Perun using a 3rd party hack during a competitive raid. He's their raid leader, therefore the guild in it's entirely should face punishment as did DA previously. The rules are the rules. Either they mean something, or they don't.

[Zereh]

Originally Posted by Hasbinbad [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

... supposed cheating or corruption when such cheating has been summarily dealt with and the corruption has been deemed not to exist.

Too bad your sketchily worded intro pretty much negates any good intentions that you profess to be presenting here. Nothing was deemed not to exist; one Dev quit insisting that there was no corruption and another quit insisting there was. There has been no official announcement from anyone on the matter.

Yes, you can write a pretty sentence. And yes, you can argue your points with a modicum of intelligence. But that in no way makes what you say the irrefutable truth though you continually try to imply otherwise.

Your ultimate goal is, and always has been, to keep your guild at the top of the heap no matter the cost. If that big collective you that you’re so gallantly trying to represent here really gave a shit about anyone except themselves P99 would not be in the state it is today. Time to start walking your talk. Lady up and remove the known cheaters from your guild if you want to make a clear statement about your concern over the state of the server. That move alone would speak volumes about your sincerity. All the rest is just smoke and mirrors.

[mwatt]

Originally Posted by G13 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So then you're perfectly fine playing on a server where one guild receives special treatment over all others? This is what gives EMU servers a bad name. They are considered corrupt boxes, not supervised in a professional and respectful manner to their player base.

People started playing here because of promises made by development that cheating would not be tolerated under any circumstances. That there would be no second chances if you were caught hacking/using 3rd party programs. You don't level to 60 in a week.

The "tradeoff", in terms of the intrinsic value of our time investment here, was always that the developers were men of their word. That their rules and punishments would be distributed equally and fairly. No exceptions.

People donate to this server and ***** *** to generate revenue. We do this because we care about this server. We care about the community. We've played by the rules for years. Now we're being forced to "share" the server with 365 "guests" who are cheaters.

I have no evidence that what you postulate is true - i.e. that one guild is receiving special treatment over others. I suppose if I saw a systematic favoritism applied over time, It might give me cause to consider my stay here. But this is a one shot deal. Because of the large number of potential accounts that would dissappear, I can see how Rogean and staff would give consideration to waiving their own rules on a one time basis. If the result of said one time leniency appeared from some perspective as if it favored a certain guild or guilds, I would not get all dramatic about it - this would not be a systematic application of favoritism.

Again, this is Nilborgs's and Rogean's and company's house. I trust them to do what is basically the right thing, with a little bit of autocraticness thrown in. Goddamn, they built it and maintain it. That gives them the right. So far, I very much like the result of their decisions. I don't agree with all of them (e.g. the recent announcement of SoF support going away) but that's just too bad for me.

Again, overall, I like what they do here. Unless they consistently and repeatedly begin to dissappoint me I won't leave. Under no circumstances will I start some sort of crusade to change things or try to rile people up. I will and have stated opinions on things in the past, and I think it is ok to politely discuss them up to a point. Beyond a certain point I will not go - it is bad manners and it might be construed as biting the hand that feeds me.

In regard to sharing the server with cheaters... these guys are doing a lot more than I have seen done anywhere else to identify and punish cheaters. I don't see a one time pseudo-amnesty as evidence of corruption. I see it as an attempt to make a practical decision. Obviously some people disagree with it. Fine. Say so, then either leave or stay, but let it go.

[mwatt]

Originally Posted by Slave [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Unfortunately for both you and the server, the issue is the largest that P99 has ever faced, and likely will ever face.

I've seen this happen time and time again with other games and even other emus. Unless the cheaters are removed, they will continue to cause major economic and political problems for P99. You cannot reason with them, and you cannot appease them... all they want is an advantage over other people, and they don't care how they get it; this is an attitude that is completely inimical to a well-run server.

An item removal or ban on their accounts would go a long, long way toward punishing them, as opposed to basically copping out and changing their stance on cheating to "well, it's like 15% of the player base, so we'd better not ban them or we'll get less donations."

Sorry, but many of the rest of us noticed what the rules were from day 1 because we made knowing and following them a priority. Most of us are quieter than the cheaters, but some of us have a few minutes to spare in our game's forums to speak out against what we feel is a terrible flaw in judgement.

You are over dramatizing this whole thing IMO. They caught cheaters, they punished them. They went lighter than they had said they would but they won't do so again. As for asking them to change what they have done or go back on what they have said... this is unlikely. It is not a good idea for people in charge of something to bow to pressure from the people affected. Sometimes you should, but as a rule, it tends to lessen authority and inivite further such incidents and pretty soon its all a huge mess.

Just my two cents. In the end, I suspect this will end up being little more than a tempest in a teacup.

Oh, and for the record, I do not cheat and did not cheat. I have never even cheated on a test in school. So I do believe in the straight and narrow and it is how I conduct myself. However, I also believe in being practical. The world is not black and white when you start dealing in more than simple scenarios. Finally, based on what they have done, I believe in the people who run this server. Not that I expect perfection - they are human. Not that I expect everything to be totally fair all the time - I have too much life experience to think that way.

[mitic]

Originally Posted by Zereh [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

just smoke and mirrors.

blaming 1 guild for a serverwide suspension list

Originally Posted by Zereh [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

just smoke and mirrors.

[JayDee]

Wipe imminent